11 ms·
It is actually concerning that you can inject false sensor data this easily. I mean, sure, the messages on the CAN will not be encrypted or signed in any way, I
by bipson 6y ago
It is actually concerning that you can inject false sensor data this easily. I mean, sure, the messages on the CAN will not be encrypted or signed in any way, I know, but still...
- jinzo 6y agoIt's not that easy and it's getting harder with each new car platform. But on the other end, some of the sensors are basic and will always be suspectable to false inputs. But don't worry, maybe it looks easy -> but it's not.
- izacus 6y agoWhy exactly would be concerning? You need to physically plug cables in the car you yourself own. If anything, every access to hardware you own SHOULD be this easy.
- bambax 6y agoWell, not exactly. Once you have plugged this device into your can, it can be hacked. It's just a phone after all, and it has normal wireless connection options available.
- netsharc 6y agoIt seems the system only works when the driver activates the cruise control, which hopefully Honda has programmed correctly: i.e. if cruise control is deactivated, steering inputs from the CAN-bus will be ignored. So the driver can still regain control from a hacked device by deactivating cruise control, which s/he can do by moving the steering wheel or pressing one of the pedals.
- bipson 6y agoBecause that means not only you (the owner) can do it. Also (caution, tangent): MCUs in cars is one of the systems where I want more encryption/signing and less hacking - especially for owners. Foremost to get rid of all the chip-tuned soot sources I am constanly driving behind. The manufacturer knows how to control the engine, the random idiot with a laptop in 95% of the cases does more harm then good. If the manufacturer botched the MCU (hello VW), then he is held accountable. If he allows users to cause harm to the environment (chip-tuning), he should be held accountable too.
- jinzo 6y agoI really wish to know where you live that the quality of chip-tunin is so bad. In developed world (EU), the owners are accountable for their vehicles. Including emission controls. But the problem is on the enforcing side, from the people actually doing the enforcing to the (un)avability of appropriate measuring devices that are able to detect the prescribed levels. EDIT: As I saw that you are from AT. You do know that your country has a reputition of 'hardcore' car modification checking at the inspection? :D But yeah, I noticed several problems with that and your system of 'we will just let every mechanic certify the cars'.
- bipson 6y agoThere is no such thing as high quality chip tuning, unless you are replicating 100% what the manufacturer just disabled for your MCU (e.g. unlocking some kW your motor is in principle capable of outputting). But then again, e.g. BMW uses different, more reliable mechanic parts (camshaft, head, etc.) on motors that have these kWs unlocked, so you are still risking ruining your motor in the long run. Chip tuning always meddles with curves the manufacturer chose after long consideration and extensive tests (let's just ignore VW for a moment) - and you are trying to tell me that guy from this shop just "knows better" and "sure, this will be better in every possible aspect"? Are you trying to say a 2019 BMW out of factory will shoot out black smoke while accelerating (quite boringly) from a traffic light?
- ska 6y agoI think you are missing the point; perhaps there are bunch of kids just fiddling with their ECU on an otherwise stock car where you live. In my experience though, tuning is mostly done in conjunction with changing other parts (headers, ports, cams, add a turbo, fuel kit etc.) so the manufacturers long consideration of the best balance for the stock engine is no longer relevant. You have to retune to get proper performance; fair that tuners are rarely considering emissions like the manufacturer would, but changing the airflow characteristics without changing the tune is a bad idea...
- 6y ago
- matthewdgreen 6y agoThe CAN bus is shared by a number of devices, each with its own microprocessor and thus (in principle) potentially subject to exploits that cause it to run malicious code. Some of the devices on the bus interact with the outside world via cellular, Wifi, Bluetooth and USB. The disturbing idea here is that your car is basically an internally-unfirewalled network of computers that can kill you if they malfunction.
- jinzo 6y agoBut it is firewalled (between OBD port and the car, between internal buses,...). I won't say it's sufficiently locked down, but as we recently saw - not even Apple got that completely right - but there are several layers of protection(s) on the various communication bus-es and computers. At least on European Manufacturers. I agree that this needs more hardening, but reading this comments one would get an idea that a 12 years old kid with a 10EUR dongle can hack any car. When in reality, stuff is a lot harder to do.
- numpad0 6y agoThey can firewall or encrypt the bus, but if security fails, that can kill you as well by erroneously refusing to work.
- mtgx 6y agoBecause firewalls are such a panacea for security?
- RHSeeger 6y agoI would bet good money that there's many cars where the CAN is accessible by an ECU which has internet (or other remote) access.
- seg_lol 6y agoAndroid and iOS auto, do you want these systems to attach this easily to the car? Safety critical CAN bus messages should be signed.
- dheera 6y agoAndroid and iOS auto don't have access to the CAN bus that can control steering. They may have access to a physically separate CAN bus that controls the entertainment system and air conditioning. There are normally multiple buses in a car.
- seg_lol 6y agoIs there a legal requirement that the CAN buses be air-gapped? What has changed since https://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-highway/ https://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-hig...
- numpad0 6y agoThen you have to certify signing mechanism so that braking works even if cosmic ray ruined brake pedal control unit, and that is half sane and half stupid.
- ezconnect 6y agoIt's not yet concerning since you need to hardwire to the custom serial bus of modern car to have access to steering and cruise control systems. What's concerning is the trend started by Tesla that remotely disables your car.
- dzhiurgis 6y agoIt would be quite concerning if they disabled cars based by “our automated systems detected breach of community rules” without ability to dispute it in future. Right now disabling car after violent crash looks like obvious security feature that every car (especially electric).
- numpad0 6y agoNot much of false sensor data, they use existing endpoints used by ADAS. Steering or gas or brake ECUs on older cars without fancy adaptive automatic thingy don’t accept remote control, units in such cars only take analog user inputs and only report statuses on the bus. Since ADAS is complicated and developed independent to the rest of the car, car manufacturers expanded those actuators to incorporate remote control mechanisms, and ADAS systems are implemented as a self contained computer that send out those control messages. Sort of like a Raspberry Pi with the camera in a case that is advertised as an “Ethernet AI camera”. Openpilot on officially supported cars impersonate those ADAS unit. They are not directly meddling with pedal potentiometer readouts and such. That kind of rigging are used in some lab experiments but not in the majority of OP driven cars.
- ezconnect 6y agoYes I agree with you, I only call it false data because the ADAS sensor is replaced with OpenPilot. I tried OpenPilot with my car without ADAS and adaptive cruise control and you need the extra wire for the module to give false pedal position and trick the steering. I only stopped because I am afraid to break my daily driver, but it does work and it's amazing.