7 ms·

Slow map: Mapping Britain's intercity footpaths

129 points by mellosouls 6y ago

pjc50 6y ago
I really appreciate how this guy understands that the map is not the territory - the mere appearance of a line in a dataset doesn't mean it's really walkable in practice, and he wants people to research what the situation on the ground is.
- arethuza 6y ago
  Another potentially quite serious problem is up to date information on whether things like bridges are in place - its fairly common for footbridges not to be shown on maps or for bridges on OS maps to have long since been washed away or so dangerous as to be impassable.
rathel 6y ago
Now, if only there was a project to deliver freely licensed maps of the world... Let's call it, idk, OpenStreetMap? Sounds cool :^)
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  Most people in the United Kingdom would be using Ordnance Survey. Also, I think Ordnance Survey's record of the use of these footpaths has significant weight in keeping them legally protected. So Ordnance Survey is the best tool here.
  - Doctor_Fegg 6y ago
    Except OS data is surprisingly badly suited to this. OS doesn't have a topological (=connected, routable) database of public rights of way. The green lines you see drawn on a Landranger map are just that: lines on a map. I don't need to explain how having a routable database would make a project like Slow Ways so much simpler. OS, of course, doesn't have accessibility information like stiles, gates, or surface quality, which OSM often has. I love OS maps, but they are increasingly being marginalised to B2B applications (particularly utilities) and keen walkers. Most UK cyclists have migrated to OSM and, judging from people I see out and about here in the Cotswolds, casual walkers are increasingly going that way too.
    - arethuza 6y ago
      OS maps are invaluable for wilder areas (e.g. Scottish Highlands) but they seem pretty poor compared to OSM for low level walks here in Fife. The don't show a lot of paths, paths they do show don't really exist and often they show narrow paths as tracks. Another weird thing that happens on OS maps is that some paths are shown on 1:50,000 maps but not on 1:25000!
  - topbanana 6y ago
    In fact each county maintains its own 'definitive map' of public rights of way. That's how they're protected. This is mine https://explorer.geowessex.com/?layers=48&basemap=26 https://explorer.geowessex.com/?layers=48&basemap=26 Definitive maps https://www.ramblers.org.uk/advice/paths-in-england-and-wales/definitive-maps-explained.aspx https://www.ramblers.org.uk/advice/paths-in-england-and-wale...
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      But look at how you get footpaths to be legally protected, and how you get them protected again after they're been forgotten, and how to protect new ones - using evidence from reputable archive sources like Ordnance Survey - that's how they argue these cases. You're showing me the result - I'm telling you how that gets achieved in practice. You can read more about it here from a relevant group https://www.ramblers.org.uk/-/media/Resources/Volunteer%20resources/Protecting%20and%20expanding%20where%20we%20walk%20toolkit/lostways_20150311110454.ashx?la=en&hash=BC516FDB5FA99B32271DEF392719481F https://www.ramblers.org.uk/-/media/Resources/Volunteer%20re...
      - arethuza 6y ago
        Is there any chance that England and Wales will get the same "Right to Roam" as in Scotland?
        rossng 6y ago
        Given that the government is currently busy trying to make trespass a criminal offence, I wouldn't bet on it any time soon.
    - dazzawazza 6y ago
      For those who don't know, the Rambler Association has been fighting for new and ancient foot paths and "rights to roam" for 90 years in the UK. England in particular has a long and complex history of land being gifted by royalty and clergy to sycophants leading to the rest of us being screwed over for literally a thousand years! Green and pleasant land indeed!
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - ascorbic 6y ago
    The OS maps include all legally-designated public rights of way, and some permissive paths. It doesn't show if they're passable, safe or easy to use.
  - dTal 6y ago
    Most regrettably, Ordnance Survey isn't free.
    - g_p 6y ago
      An awful lot of OS data is actually available directly from them under the open government licence in recent years. Recently they added their UPRN (unique property reference number) database and some other ones. OpenMap Local and OpenZoomstack are both available as open data, and give an awful lot of what most people are looking for when it comes to map data.
- ascorbic 6y ago
  OSM shows all of the paths. It doesn't say which are the best ones to use.
  - adrianN 6y ago
    OSM has a lot of metadata about the paths that could be used to indicate which ones are best.
    - johnjreiser 6y ago
      Exactly this. The metadata is flexible and OSM could readily support a quality assessment within a "slowways" namespace.
- gnufx 6y ago
  OSM is noticeable by absence of any mention I can see on the web site, sadly, and it's not even clear the data will be licensed compatibly. (The OSM UK mail list demonstrates the obsession^Wcare which at least some contributors devote to mapping.)
dkarp 6y ago
The project page: https://slowways.uk/ https://slowways.uk/ As they say, there are many paths in the UK but it can take a lot of research to find long routes that don't leave you on a busy road with no pavement. I hope this project is a success and can't wait to use it.
- enriquto 6y ago
  But where is the actual data? All that this site has is some photos, I find no maps.
  - dkarp 6y ago
    "We are currently working on building a website that will host all of the routes and hope to launch that later this year."
    - enriquto 6y ago
      I call bullshit (somewhat imprudently). I don't understand why they can already put together some professional looking photos, but are not yet willing to release the interesting data.
      - tinus_hn 6y ago
        There are plenty of companies that’ll create a professional looking website for your product, whether it exists or not. That doesn’t mean anything. What I find more surprising is announcing such a project if there is no result yet, now they get buzz and create disappointment and I don’t see what they gain for it.
        enriquto 6y ago
        That was my point. Announcing that something will (i.e. may) be available in the future is a sure way to shoot yourself in the foot and lose a lot of sympathy.
leokennis 6y ago
Fantastic initiative and set up and presented in a nice, understated and sensible way. I’m wondering if similar projects would work outside of the UK. As far as I know, the UK is pretty unique in the fact that basically all land is freely accessible by anyone, except when explicitly forbidden? For example here in the Netherlands, basically anything that isn’t a public street is off limits, except when the owner of the land explicitly grants access.
- arethuza 6y ago
  Scotland does have "Right to Roam" (as do a number of other countries): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam You can, in general, walk/cycle to most places in Scotland although there are fairly sensible conditions: https://www.scotways.com/faq/law-on-statutory-access-rights https://www.scotways.com/faq/law-on-statutory-access-rights https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/ https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/ I'm in the process of walking the Munros and I'm careful to check with landowners about access during the deer stalking season - I've never had a landowner be anything other than completely helpful. NB Walkhighlands is a superb site covering walks throughout Scotland, not just the Highlands: https://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/ https://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/ Heritage Paths is also good: http://www.heritagepaths.co.uk http://www.heritagepaths.co.uk
- trogsworth 6y ago
  England has a right to roam (https://www.gov.uk/right-of-way-open-access-land/use-your-right-to-roam https://www.gov.uk/right-of-way-open-access-land/use-your-ri...), but it's less strong than Scotland's (https://www.scotways.com/faq/law-on-statutory-access-rights https://www.scotways.com/faq/law-on-statutory-access-rights).
- adwww 6y ago
  > basically all land is freely accessible by anyone, except when explicitly forbidden That's not strictly true for England. Although it's not illegal to trespass (outside of power stations, military bases and ports) unless you cause damage while doing so.
cm2187 6y ago
An interesting video on the same subject [1]. The mapping also has to do with the path being recognised as such, as it might otherwise cease to be legally publicly accessible in 2026. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dYc0Ouxhx0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dYc0Ouxhx0
varispeed 6y ago
This is great. When I was looking for my missing cat I discovered so many hidden trails in my borough that was just amazing. For example a gap between two residential homes I thought it leads to someone's garden but actually it was a quite long public footpath with signs of homeless people camping on it. I also found two abandoned properties that I wouldn't see in Google Maps. One of which was totally overgrown with bushes, weeds and someone even left a half of the car there. Then I found an article that the owner of the site was ordered to clear it, but that it seems has never happened. Cat returned a few days later.
- arethuza 6y ago
  I found OpenStreetMap invaluable for places to walk during the lockdown earlier this year - it has a lot of paths that aren't on OS maps at all.
  - Angostura 6y ago
    If they aren't on OS, they probably aren't public rights of way. OS is definitive.
    - arethuza 6y ago
      I'm in Scotland - I don't think that applies to the same extent. I should note that most of the footpaths around here were built by the farmers who own the land! "While in England and Wales, highway authorities have a duty to maintain legally recognised maps of rights of way, in Scotland different legislation applies and there is no legally recognised record of rights of way." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_way#Scotland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_way#Scotland I do a lot of walking in Scotland and I've never paid any attention to whether a path is described as a "Right of Way" or not - mostly it seems of historical interest for places like the wonderful "Jock's Road": https://www.heritagepaths.co.uk/pathdetails.php?path=38 https://www.heritagepaths.co.uk/pathdetails.php?path=38
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
JdeBP 6y ago
Also interesting is what, if anything at all, has happened since that news, over three years ago, about rediscovered 1930s cycleways. * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14386423 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14386423 * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14388446 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14388446
pedro-guimaraes 6y ago
Cool, thanks for sharing!
jvm_ 6y ago
Another resource for finding footpaths/routes is https://www.strava.com/heatmap https://www.strava.com/heatmap They've aggregated tons of bike and running routes so you can see where other people have ran/biked before. Good to use in the woods when the trails aren't very obvious, just use the 'find me' button on the map and then you can see where you are and which trail goes where.
- IanCal 6y ago
  This is fantastic thanks. I've moved to a new area, and some of what's here looks like it might be people in cars (some is definitely on trains) but I can see some good routes over fields. Particularly this shows me that a lot of people go down a route I thought connected but wasn't sure and couldn't find the time to check (a long way back if it's not part of a loop).

129 points by mellosouls 6y ago

I really appreciate how this guy understands that the map is not the territory - the mere appearance of a line in a dataset doesn't mean it's really walkable in practice, and he wants people to research what the situation on the ground is.

arethuza 6y ago
Another potentially quite serious problem is up to date information on whether things like bridges are in place - its fairly common for footbridges not to be shown on maps or for bridges on OS maps to have long since been washed away or so dangerous as to be impassable.

rathel 6y ago

Now, if only there was a project to deliver freely licensed maps of the world... Let's call it, idk, OpenStreetMap? Sounds cool :^)

chrisseaton 6y ago
Most people in the United Kingdom would be using Ordnance Survey. Also, I think Ordnance Survey's record of the use of these footpaths has significant weight in keeping them legally protected. So Ordnance Survey is the best tool here.
- Doctor_Fegg 6y ago
  Except OS data is surprisingly badly suited to this. OS doesn't have a topological (=connected, routable) database of public rights of way. The green lines you see drawn on a Landranger map are just that: lines on a map. I don't need to explain how having a routable database would make a project like Slow Ways so much simpler. OS, of course, doesn't have accessibility information like stiles, gates, or surface quality, which OSM often has. I love OS maps, but they are increasingly being marginalised to B2B applications (particularly utilities) and keen walkers. Most UK cyclists have migrated to OSM and, judging from people I see out and about here in the Cotswolds, casual walkers are increasingly going that way too.
  - arethuza 6y ago
    OS maps are invaluable for wilder areas (e.g. Scottish Highlands) but they seem pretty poor compared to OSM for low level walks here in Fife. The don't show a lot of paths, paths they do show don't really exist and often they show narrow paths as tracks. Another weird thing that happens on OS maps is that some paths are shown on 1:50,000 maps but not on 1:25000!
- topbanana 6y ago
  In fact each county maintains its own 'definitive map' of public rights of way. That's how they're protected. This is mine https://explorer.geowessex.com/?layers=48&basemap=26 https://explorer.geowessex.com/?layers=48&basemap=26 Definitive maps https://www.ramblers.org.uk/advice/paths-in-england-and-wales/definitive-maps-explained.aspx https://www.ramblers.org.uk/advice/paths-in-england-and-wale...
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    But look at how you get footpaths to be legally protected, and how you get them protected again after they're been forgotten, and how to protect new ones - using evidence from reputable archive sources like Ordnance Survey - that's how they argue these cases. You're showing me the result - I'm telling you how that gets achieved in practice. You can read more about it here from a relevant group https://www.ramblers.org.uk/-/media/Resources/Volunteer%20resources/Protecting%20and%20expanding%20where%20we%20walk%20toolkit/lostways_20150311110454.ashx?la=en&hash=BC516FDB5FA99B32271DEF392719481F https://www.ramblers.org.uk/-/media/Resources/Volunteer%20re...
    - arethuza 6y ago
      Is there any chance that England and Wales will get the same "Right to Roam" as in Scotland?
      - rossng 6y ago
        Given that the government is currently busy trying to make trespass a criminal offence, I wouldn't bet on it any time soon.
  - dazzawazza 6y ago
    For those who don't know, the Rambler Association has been fighting for new and ancient foot paths and "rights to roam" for 90 years in the UK. England in particular has a long and complex history of land being gifted by royalty and clergy to sycophants leading to the rest of us being screwed over for literally a thousand years! Green and pleasant land indeed!
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- ascorbic 6y ago
  The OS maps include all legally-designated public rights of way, and some permissive paths. It doesn't show if they're passable, safe or easy to use.
- dTal 6y ago
  Most regrettably, Ordnance Survey isn't free.
  - g_p 6y ago
    An awful lot of OS data is actually available directly from them under the open government licence in recent years. Recently they added their UPRN (unique property reference number) database and some other ones. OpenMap Local and OpenZoomstack are both available as open data, and give an awful lot of what most people are looking for when it comes to map data.
ascorbic 6y ago
OSM shows all of the paths. It doesn't say which are the best ones to use.
- adrianN 6y ago
  OSM has a lot of metadata about the paths that could be used to indicate which ones are best.
  - johnjreiser 6y ago
    Exactly this. The metadata is flexible and OSM could readily support a quality assessment within a "slowways" namespace.
gnufx 6y ago
OSM is noticeable by absence of any mention I can see on the web site, sadly, and it's not even clear the data will be licensed compatibly. (The OSM UK mail list demonstrates the obsession^Wcare which at least some contributors devote to mapping.)

dkarp 6y ago

The project page: https://slowways.uk/ https://slowways.uk/ As they say, there are many paths in the UK but it can take a lot of research to find long routes that don't leave you on a busy road with no pavement. I hope this project is a success and can't wait to use it.

enriquto 6y ago
But where is the actual data? All that this site has is some photos, I find no maps.
- dkarp 6y ago
  "We are currently working on building a website that will host all of the routes and hope to launch that later this year."
  - enriquto 6y ago
    I call bullshit (somewhat imprudently). I don't understand why they can already put together some professional looking photos, but are not yet willing to release the interesting data.
    - tinus_hn 6y ago
      There are plenty of companies that’ll create a professional looking website for your product, whether it exists or not. That doesn’t mean anything. What I find more surprising is announcing such a project if there is no result yet, now they get buzz and create disappointment and I don’t see what they gain for it.
      - enriquto 6y ago
        That was my point. Announcing that something will (i.e. may) be available in the future is a sure way to shoot yourself in the foot and lose a lot of sympathy.

leokennis 6y ago

Fantastic initiative and set up and presented in a nice, understated and sensible way. I’m wondering if similar projects would work outside of the UK. As far as I know, the UK is pretty unique in the fact that basically all land is freely accessible by anyone, except when explicitly forbidden? For example here in the Netherlands, basically anything that isn’t a public street is off limits, except when the owner of the land explicitly grants access.

arethuza 6y ago
Scotland does have "Right to Roam" (as do a number of other countries): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam You can, in general, walk/cycle to most places in Scotland although there are fairly sensible conditions: https://www.scotways.com/faq/law-on-statutory-access-rights https://www.scotways.com/faq/law-on-statutory-access-rights https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/ https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/ I'm in the process of walking the Munros and I'm careful to check with landowners about access during the deer stalking season - I've never had a landowner be anything other than completely helpful. NB Walkhighlands is a superb site covering walks throughout Scotland, not just the Highlands: https://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/ https://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/ Heritage Paths is also good: http://www.heritagepaths.co.uk http://www.heritagepaths.co.uk
trogsworth 6y ago
England has a right to roam (https://www.gov.uk/right-of-way-open-access-land/use-your-right-to-roam https://www.gov.uk/right-of-way-open-access-land/use-your-ri...), but it's less strong than Scotland's (https://www.scotways.com/faq/law-on-statutory-access-rights https://www.scotways.com/faq/law-on-statutory-access-rights).
adwww 6y ago
> basically all land is freely accessible by anyone, except when explicitly forbidden That's not strictly true for England. Although it's not illegal to trespass (outside of power stations, military bases and ports) unless you cause damage while doing so.

cm2187 6y ago

An interesting video on the same subject [1]. The mapping also has to do with the path being recognised as such, as it might otherwise cease to be legally publicly accessible in 2026. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dYc0Ouxhx0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dYc0Ouxhx0

varispeed 6y ago

This is great. When I was looking for my missing cat I discovered so many hidden trails in my borough that was just amazing. For example a gap between two residential homes I thought it leads to someone's garden but actually it was a quite long public footpath with signs of homeless people camping on it. I also found two abandoned properties that I wouldn't see in Google Maps. One of which was totally overgrown with bushes, weeds and someone even left a half of the car there. Then I found an article that the owner of the site was ordered to clear it, but that it seems has never happened. Cat returned a few days later.

arethuza 6y ago
I found OpenStreetMap invaluable for places to walk during the lockdown earlier this year - it has a lot of paths that aren't on OS maps at all.
- Angostura 6y ago
  If they aren't on OS, they probably aren't public rights of way. OS is definitive.
  - arethuza 6y ago
    I'm in Scotland - I don't think that applies to the same extent. I should note that most of the footpaths around here were built by the farmers who own the land! "While in England and Wales, highway authorities have a duty to maintain legally recognised maps of rights of way, in Scotland different legislation applies and there is no legally recognised record of rights of way." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_way#Scotland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_way#Scotland I do a lot of walking in Scotland and I've never paid any attention to whether a path is described as a "Right of Way" or not - mostly it seems of historical interest for places like the wonderful "Jock's Road": https://www.heritagepaths.co.uk/pathdetails.php?path=38 https://www.heritagepaths.co.uk/pathdetails.php?path=38
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]

JdeBP 6y ago

Also interesting is what, if anything at all, has happened since that news, over three years ago, about rediscovered 1930s cycleways. * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14386423 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14386423 * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14388446 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14388446

pedro-guimaraes 6y ago

Cool, thanks for sharing!

jvm_ 6y ago

Another resource for finding footpaths/routes is https://www.strava.com/heatmap https://www.strava.com/heatmap They've aggregated tons of bike and running routes so you can see where other people have ran/biked before. Good to use in the woods when the trails aren't very obvious, just use the 'find me' button on the map and then you can see where you are and which trail goes where.

IanCal 6y ago
This is fantastic thanks. I've moved to a new area, and some of what's here looks like it might be people in cars (some is definitely on trains) but I can see some good routes over fields. Particularly this shows me that a lot of people go down a route I thought connected but wasn't sure and couldn't find the time to check (a long way back if it's not part of a loop).