14 ms·

We Tested Comma AI's OpenPilot

195 points by clouddrover 6y ago

SwimSwimHungry 6y ago
George Hotz continues to keep blowing up the tech space somehow. I legitimately wonder if he's a savant, because he seems unstoppable. I did hear he has also stood on the shoulders of giants to get to where he is as well, so who knows.
- Rainymood 6y ago
  We are all standing on the shoulders of giants to be honest.
- arc0 6y ago
  He streams on Youtube/Twitch fairly regularly, just from watching it is totally obvious that he is a genius-level programmer. The speed with which he reads and comprehends academic papers is incredibly impressive.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - meowface 6y ago
    I watch and very much enjoy his Twitch streams, and he's definitely and obviously very intelligent, but I'd say not necessarily more than a top ~70th percentile HN commenter who works in software engineering. I don't think he's necessarily a genius, but just super curious and motivated and confident in his ability to learn anything if he dedicates enough time and practice. You can see his learning and motivation process in his streams, when he dives into something he's totally unfamiliar with. It's very inspiring and fun to follow along with (partly because he clearly is having fun). He really enjoys learning things and has the kind of ego (not in a bad way) that just doesn't let anything stop him from trying to catch up on any concept in any field, even if he's totally "veering outside his lane" and going in blind (like his COVID-19 bioscience streams). He has a deep, almost hypomanic hunger for knowledge, and keeps Googling things until he understands everything he's reading. I think a lot of it's psychological and not purely IQ/cognitive speed, though of course it helps. If anyone's curious, you can find an archive of his streams here: https://www.youtube.com/c/commaaiarchive https://www.youtube.com/c/commaaiarchive
    - KentLane 6y ago
      Hotz won CSAW singlehanded, a one-man team against multi-person teams. And he won by an enormous margin. He is clearly way above the 70th percentile.
      - meowface 6y ago
        You're right, I shouldn't downplay his abilities, and he's definitely well over 99th percentile when it comes to results and accomplishments at the very least. I've competed in CSAW and some other CTFs and winning as a one-person team is definitely a massive achievement. Just to counter a tiny bit, he didn't necessarily win by an enormous margin. CMU's PPP has overwhelmingly dominated every collegiate CTF since forever, and he was a CMU student and I wouldn't be surprised if he trained closely with PPP members. He got 5100 to PPP's 4800, which, to play Devil's advocate, depending on the particular point weights of the solved challenges, could potentially mean he solved one additional challenge over PPP (though possibly more; I didn't dig to find the exact breakdowns). I believe he also deeply specialized in low-level RE from a young age (as demonstrated by the iPhone and PS3 exploits), and from my perception that was less common among collegiate CTF competitors and gives you a huge leg up. But of course mastering something that difficult so young and being at CMU are itself huge achievements, as is outmatching PPP on anything at all entirely by yourself. Obviously insanely impressive, and exponentially better than I could've done (and did do) at that age or could do today. Be it intelligence or endless drive and work ethic or all of the above, he's clearly an extremely skilled polymath. I guess I just didn't want people feeling too demotivated over genetic factors, which play a big but not a full role. He may very well be a genius, though.
    - lightbendover 6y ago
      With every halfway decent engineer you personally know, go compete in a major competition he won by himself in his early 20s and then repeat your statement. The archives are all online, take your time.
      - meowface 6y ago
        I'm probably biased because I competed in those competitions in college and do know some people who did very well (though of course not as well as him). He's definitely a > 99th percentile RE and hacker, to be sure. I was just talking about raw cognitive ability, but he absolutely may very well be > 99th percentile there as well.
- ackbar03 6y ago
  Was this written by GPT-3? This is such a strange sentence But yes George is definitely the misfit hacker wonder-kid type, and in both senses of the word hacker. He was one of the first to jailbreak the iPhone and the PS4 or 5 (can't remember which)
  - dpacmittal 6y ago
    It was PS3
raziel2p 6y ago
The most surprising part about this to me is that there seems to be a somewhat standardized computer interface for controlling cars with an external device. I would never have guessed that, I thought for sure every maker would come up with their own unique design and require you to buy adapters or whatnot.
- retSava 6y ago
  It's mandated by regulation in all cars after..2002? It's a port most often situated close to the steering wheel, the interface is a bog standard CAN bus. Where it differs between cars is what command sets are used and allowed (eg sometimes proprietary ones are used, and controlling things may not be possible). It's common to extract diagnostics about the car from this port. For example, when buying a used car this is highly recommended. Buy a cheap adapter that you plug in, connect to it over BT from a phone, and read out error codes. Perhaps the owner has temporarily put out an error to mask it during your inspection?
  - raziel2p 6y ago
    > Perhaps the owner has temporarily put out an error to mask it during your inspection? To be clear, I don't have a car or a driver's licence, I was just surprised that this standardization was a thing at all. Seems like a stark contrast to all the walled gardens in every other technology-related industry these days.
    - voqv 6y ago
      Actually not really all cars have one standard. Most German cars use Flexray which Openpilot does not currently support and is a bit more tricky to hack into as described by Comma.ai: https://medium.com/@comma_ai/hacking-an-audi-performing-a-man-in-the-middle-attack-on-flexray-2710b1d29f3f https://medium.com/@comma_ai/hacking-an-audi-performing-a-ma...
      - bipson 6y ago
        Only very recent cars use Flexray, and also not true for all manufacturers. CAN is still widely used, and some want to skip Flexray entirely for the next thing...
qznc 6y ago
It is clearly labeled "level 2" so calling that "autonomy" is misleading.
kriro 6y ago
Very nicely executed device with a good price point. Of course it's an utter nightmare with regards to privacy and I'd be very nervous regarding security and safety when I'd hand over the controls of my car to basically an android phone. Maybe I skimmed over it but I'd be interested in knowing which phones they use exactly. So I applaud the engineering but it's not a device I'd buy (and yes I do own and carry around a cell phone).
- aartvs 6y ago
  According to the article it is a LeEco Le Pro 3
- Ftuuky 6y ago
  The android phone they use for the comma two is a LeEco Le Pro 3.
- bipson 6y ago
  My main concern would be that the architecture of an OTS Android system does not offer any guarantees regarding real-time i.e. hard deadlines. Ever had an android app or even the whole phone locking up? Even if it is only for a second or two, I don't want this to happen to a device that feeds live data into my car's controller. Even if this is only level 2 driver assist. If a car would get a bogus "you are crossing a divider line" signal for e.g. 2 seconds, it would start to steer quite persistently (even if with limited force) in a certain direction and you would have to counter that action. Nope, I wouldn't use this.
  - BunsanSpace 6y ago
    I think thats the ultimate plan, but if you listen to GeoHotz talk about it, he really wants an economical self driving solution. E.g. waymo cars cost 100k+ and thus isn't economical. It's also opensource so I think the end game is to have manufactures adopt this and go through the whole song and dance of getting it full validated on their vehicles.
    - cartoonworld 6y ago
DoingIsLearning 6y ago
The project contains software that acts as functional safety software in a vehicle, so ISO 26262 should apply. I couldn't find any reference to this in the repository or landing page? Some sources mention it is for research only purposes (in closed roads?), others advertise this as a CES consumer product, has the project evolved along the way? Each car manufacturer has to provide a battery of tests to regulators for each vehicle and sub-system within each vehicle. This project claims to be safe to use on more than 100 separate vehicles, perhaps I am missing something but this claim would require a considerable amount of evidence. I am all for open-source and experimentation but in cases where we cannot provide guarantees, this should be done on a private road at your own risk.
- voqv 6y ago
  Afaik you buy this thing as a dashcam and then flash the self driving software on your own at your own risk. This was done exactly when "the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) demanded that Comma.ai provide proof to regulators that its proposed device for self-driving cars would be safe". [1] I wonder if there's anything new around this development with regards to Comma.ai as this is status of 2016. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/selfdriving-safety/comma-ai-drops-self-driving-device-after-warning-from-u-s-regulators-idUSL1N1CY25X https://www.reuters.com/article/selfdriving-safety/comma-ai-...
  - DoingIsLearning 6y ago
    > on your own at your own risk It is not just your own risk but also that of other pedestrians, cyclists, and drivers that share the road with you.
    - bipson 6y ago
      that's not what "at your own risk" means. "At your own risk" means you bear the risk (legally). If something happens, it is on you, and the manufacturer offloads any liability on you. That does not imply what the risks are. Life threatening? You are risking other people's lives.
CallMeJim 6y ago
I can see this influencing my next vehicle purchase. For those who are familiar with the project - what is the security situation like?
- tylergetsay 6y ago
  I run mine completely offline, it doesn't require an internet connection except every few months. This check can be disabled pretty easily.
  - mediaman 6y ago
    It requires a weekly connection, which they implemented so that if there were a bug that were in an upgrade they could deploy it reasonably quickly. But as you say, it can be disabled, because it's open source.
person_of_color 6y ago
See also Ghost Locomotion, L3 device with more funding.
- ProjectBarks 6y ago
  $3,495 Separate $99/month subscription required. and according to their website.... > Coming soon > The delivery and use of Ghost products will depend on our ability to meet certain reliability and performance levels, as well as receiving applicable regulatory approvals, which could take longer for certain car models and in certain jurisdictions. We continuously work to improve the functionality of our products, and as a result, some of the features depicted herein may be delivered to you via over-the-air software updates or equipment upgrades.
- p1esk 6y ago
  There's nothing to see there.
  - person_of_color 6y ago
    Its a scam?
CapricornNoble 6y ago
The article reads that OpenPilot uses facial recognition to detect a distracted driver.....Can that be fooled with an image, or perhaps a mannequin? I wonder if you could apply this autonomous car tech to vehicle-borne IEDs. The driver could dismount a few hundred meters short of the target and provide eyes-on ground-level surveillance (if for some reason you aren't using a UAV for the same) while the vehicle drives on a final attack vector.
- throwaway744678 6y ago
  They probably also check for movements, blinks, etc. In any case, it should be viewed as an help for the driver (beep when falling asleep), rather than something working against him. If you wan to actively fool the device, do as you please (the software is open-source, after all, you can probably fork it to disable that feature) but face the consequences: your life is on the line!
- viraptor 6y ago
  It's an open system. You don't have to fool it in that case. Just disable the distraction detection.
notmine1337 6y ago
I recommend George Hotz's livestream [1] to anybody interested in computer science, really fascinating. [1] : https://www.youtube.com/c/commaaiarchive/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/commaaiarchive/videos
- canada_dry 6y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPQHv3z3MWY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPQHv3z3MWY Guess I'm old... cuz that was painful to watch. Reminded me of the juvenile videos that Digg founders released back in their heyday. Sometimes you don't want/need to see behind the curtain!
  - freediver 6y ago
    His channel is recruiting tool for talent, not consumer facing PR. As such the content is very well suited.
dogma1138 6y ago
I wonder how regulators and most insurers treat those. It won’t surprise me if these might not be “road legal” modifications, or at least modifications that may incur additional criminal liability Im also pretty sure that insurers can use these to deny claims if accidents happen.
- foiblesprickly 6y ago
  ive been looking at getting this for my CRV for about 1 year. most insurance companies are fine with adding this device to your plan as ive inquired and read about several experiences with it.
  - dogma1138 6y ago
    I wonder if they think it’s the same as aftermarket ADAS systems like MobilEye while it isn’t since it requires you to essentially flash your car.
jimmyjack 6y ago
I want a device that will not control the car but will give more a ton of real-time information, ideally projected on some corner of my windshield. Information including: 1. Speed limit for the area/road I am in. 2. Real time radar report telling me how many cars/pedestrians e.t.c are around me. 3. Information on common accident types in the area I am driving in. 4. For my corner of the world, it will be good to get a report on road status before I take the route - something like gravel, cratered e.t.c I suspect that something like this would sell like crazy for existing cars. Basically a thing were I install a camera/sensor that is hooked to such a device.
- jbob2000 6y ago
  It’s called a brain. You pay attention and read the speed signs as you enter an area. You use your peripheral vision to watch for pedestrians and traffic. And what would a report on common accidents be for, aside from some interesting statistical anomalies? You should still pay attention and drive safely, regardless of whether or not the area had 4 red light speeding tickets given last month or 8. You’re basically suggesting using a smartphone camera to walk around town, when you could just, y’know, use your eyes.
  - Steltek 6y ago
    Umm, you first? How is the "use your brain and your eyes" safety strategy working out so far? Are you against ABS too? Shouldn't people just learn to pump their brakes? Computers assisting but not supplanting people's natural abilities is one of the utopian visions of how to use technology. GP's idea seems brilliant and the only downside is that 2020 has shown that lots of stupid people would proudly boast how they ignore the warnings or pump the statistics in the wrong direction. They would probably get a catchy name for themselves too.
  - piva00 6y ago
    > You’re basically suggesting using a smartphone camera to walk around town, when you could just, y’know, use your eyes. Our brains are kinda specialised to process information at that speed, not at cars speeds. Having an augmented reality is definitely useful, the same way it's useful for you to have access to maps with realtime location in your phone while walking in the city. Why don't you use your brain and navigate solely through memory? You could still do it, why use a smartphone for navigation? Because it helps. The same is the case for augmenting information you have, in a car it can be quite useful if you end up missing a sign for the maximum speed (as I've done through Germany in some Autobahn stretches that change speed, most of the times due to construction). The same is the case of giving more spatial awareness through data, who is around you? That is the most basic skill you need as a driver, if there are systems to feed you this data in a quicker and more processable way rather than relying on other people's ability to maintain their attention to be checking their mirrors and keep awareness of their surroundings all the time, so be it. I do it all the time while driving, I don't trust others do the same. So you know, you could also use that brain a bit more.
nojvek 6y ago
I am willing to bet that the nimble AutoPilot selling <$1000 hardware and $25/month subscriptions will outlive the billion dollar giants like Cruise. CommaAI is small but it is a profitable company that controls its destiny. Waymo and Tesla have some hope. Cruise and Zoox are burning VC money like crazy with little to show.
- 05 6y ago
  Zoox is burning Amazon's money now.
- marc__1 6y ago
  > Waymo and Tesla have some hope. Cruise and Zoox are burning VC money like crazy with little to show. The numbers for Cruise reported by GM [1]: As of six months Q22020, Cruise posted revenues of $53m and total expenses of $498m, compared to $50m in rev and $553m in expenses for the same six month period in 2019. Total cash in hand for Cruise is $2.2b with zero debt 2 more years of cash burn is not your typical startup that is 'burning VC money like crazy', but still the cash burn is large. Now the question is if Cruise can expect any revenue from the new DMV authorization in SF [2] [1] starts page 9 https://media.gm.com/content/dam/Media/gmcom/investor/2020/jul/gm-q2-2020-earnings-press-release.pdf https://media.gm.com/content/dam/Media/gmcom/investor/2020/j... [2] https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/news-and-media/dmv-authorizes-cruise-to-test-driverless-vehicles-in-san-francisco/ https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/news-and-media/dmv-authorizes-...
- codezero 6y ago
  Things that are that price point end up just getting acquired by auto manufacturers since the tech isn't used anywhere else, and they can run the price down by owning it and producing it at scale / having some competitive advantage temporarily.
- dogma1138 6y ago
  MobilEye has been selling ADAS kits for about a decade now. I’m not entirely sure why CommaAI is a special case here.
stuff4ben 6y ago
How long before we start seeing traditional car manufacturers just incorporating this into their vehicles? Why develop your own ADAS software when Comma.AI and OpenPilot can just plugin into their hardware?
- qznc 6y ago
  It would have to be much cheaper. I would guess a front camera from a Tier-1 supplier will cost the manufacturer some millions in development (fitting in physically, UI, and protocols) and then a few hundred per device once. Tier-1s optimize for every cent for mature features like ACC as the margins are low.
lenwood 6y ago
I haven't kept up with this space at all. I'm a bit surprised to learn that all that's required is a windshield attachment & software update. I find this simultaneously fascinating & scary.
ProjectBarks 6y ago
Interned for Comma AI. The tech is indeed chill.
- rainbowzootsuit 6y ago
  Did you happen to enable ghostride a whip [1] mode at any time? [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_riding https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_riding
- pezo1919 6y ago
  What is their payrate?
  - kerneltoast 6y ago
    $1500/week
woeirua 6y ago
It's neat, and a good application of the technology, but honestly I don't see this taking off because the gap between the tech and execution is closing quickly. Comma was really far ahead of everyone 5 years ago. But... we have gone from a situation where the Level 2 systems available in most new cars went from an impractical gimmick, to very useful and comparable to this in just a few years. New Toyota's (MY 2020) are pretty comparable to this at no extra cost. It's really hard to see why you would buy this system for $1100 if you can just buy a new car and get this all for free, plus a bunch of additional safety features that OpenPilot obviously can't include: backup sensors, blind spot monitors, etc. I don't think manufacturers will outsource the development of their ADAS systems to Comma (or anyone else for that matter) because they view it as a potential short-term differentiator. The existing differentiators are collapsing quickly: reliability is no longer a major concern for EVs, infotainment is lost cause (Carplay and Android Auto won decisively). Aside from ADAS, we're looking at a scenario where in 10 years the only reason to buy from company X vs company Y might be price.
- ProjectBarks 6y ago
  I'm glad you are happy with your new Toyota but I think you are giving too much confidence in it's ability. Look at this evaluation between OpenPilot and Toyota TSS 2.0 https://youtu.be/z5-inxH92wM https://youtu.be/z5-inxH92wM Also free to checkout navigating SF with OpenPilot https://youtu.be/0TpMMoQ7GGg https://youtu.be/0TpMMoQ7GGg (30 min). I highly doubt you would find similar results with a Toyota TSS 2.0 system. Nevertheless, I will let the contents of the videos speak for themselves.
  - woeirua 6y ago
    I have a Subaru with Eyesight, not a Toyota. But my point was more so that one of the most popular car manufacturers is giving away a system that is probably 70% as good as OpenPilot. Those videos didn't really change my mind. I'm not convinced at all that it's really that much better on the highway. It's definitely better for non-highway driving, but it also had a few disengagements that he had to intervene for. Look, if it was $1000 for Level 5 autonomy I would be the first in line to purchase it. But it's clearly not anywhere close to that yet.
stunt 6y ago
The huge video data set that their users are sharing with them could become a valuable asset for Comma AI.
- DesolationJones 6y ago
  They actually already make it available for anyone to buy. $250k for first month and 100k a month after. No one has bought the service yet apparently.
azinman2 6y ago
L4/L5 or crash. Anything below is dangerous because of the propensity for humans to rely on what seems to be working the majority of the time and artificially trust it, especially with a population trained to need to check their phones. We saw this with the infamous Uber training driver crash in AZ, we saw this with the Apple employee in the Tesla, and we'll continue to see this over and over again until we can finally remove the steering wheel so there's no possible ill-informed release of control. Naming L2 systems 'Autopilot' and a bunch of misleading marketing certainly doesn't help either.
- shiftpgdn 6y ago
  Nonsense. Airplanes can do 99.9% of their flying without human intervention, but we don't hear about planes slamming into mountain sides because a pilot was texting or browsing the internet. The problem is any idiot can get a drivers license that let's them pilot around a 5000lb steel cube for about $200 and 20 hours of training time. And punishments are extremely lax for when mistakes are made.
  - wtetzner 6y ago
    >Nonsense > The problem is any idiot can get a drivers license that let's them pilot around a 5000lb steel cube I don't see how it's nonsense, given that the driver's license problem isn't going to be solved any time soon. The problem is that our society practically requires basically everyone to be able to drive to function, unless you happen to live in one of the relatively rare places with good public transportation.
  - azinman2 6y ago
    Flying in the air above the clouds and mountains is nothing like driving on a road with pure unpredictability all around you and needing to solve close to AGI in order to achieve it.
- bitbyt3r 6y ago
  One major differentiator for openpilot is the active driver monitoring. If you keep checking your phone while it's activated it will disengage and eventually even refuse to engage. Other systems just make you nudge the wheel, but openpilot uses the front facing camera to watch your eyes.

195 points by clouddrover 6y ago

George Hotz continues to keep blowing up the tech space somehow. I legitimately wonder if he's a savant, because he seems unstoppable. I did hear he has also stood on the shoulders of giants to get to where he is as well, so who knows.

Rainymood 6y ago
We are all standing on the shoulders of giants to be honest.
arc0 6y ago
He streams on Youtube/Twitch fairly regularly, just from watching it is totally obvious that he is a genius-level programmer. The speed with which he reads and comprehends academic papers is incredibly impressive.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- meowface 6y ago
  I watch and very much enjoy his Twitch streams, and he's definitely and obviously very intelligent, but I'd say not necessarily more than a top ~70th percentile HN commenter who works in software engineering. I don't think he's necessarily a genius, but just super curious and motivated and confident in his ability to learn anything if he dedicates enough time and practice. You can see his learning and motivation process in his streams, when he dives into something he's totally unfamiliar with. It's very inspiring and fun to follow along with (partly because he clearly is having fun). He really enjoys learning things and has the kind of ego (not in a bad way) that just doesn't let anything stop him from trying to catch up on any concept in any field, even if he's totally "veering outside his lane" and going in blind (like his COVID-19 bioscience streams). He has a deep, almost hypomanic hunger for knowledge, and keeps Googling things until he understands everything he's reading. I think a lot of it's psychological and not purely IQ/cognitive speed, though of course it helps. If anyone's curious, you can find an archive of his streams here: https://www.youtube.com/c/commaaiarchive https://www.youtube.com/c/commaaiarchive
  - KentLane 6y ago
    Hotz won CSAW singlehanded, a one-man team against multi-person teams. And he won by an enormous margin. He is clearly way above the 70th percentile.
    - meowface 6y ago
      You're right, I shouldn't downplay his abilities, and he's definitely well over 99th percentile when it comes to results and accomplishments at the very least. I've competed in CSAW and some other CTFs and winning as a one-person team is definitely a massive achievement. Just to counter a tiny bit, he didn't necessarily win by an enormous margin. CMU's PPP has overwhelmingly dominated every collegiate CTF since forever, and he was a CMU student and I wouldn't be surprised if he trained closely with PPP members. He got 5100 to PPP's 4800, which, to play Devil's advocate, depending on the particular point weights of the solved challenges, could potentially mean he solved one additional challenge over PPP (though possibly more; I didn't dig to find the exact breakdowns). I believe he also deeply specialized in low-level RE from a young age (as demonstrated by the iPhone and PS3 exploits), and from my perception that was less common among collegiate CTF competitors and gives you a huge leg up. But of course mastering something that difficult so young and being at CMU are itself huge achievements, as is outmatching PPP on anything at all entirely by yourself. Obviously insanely impressive, and exponentially better than I could've done (and did do) at that age or could do today. Be it intelligence or endless drive and work ethic or all of the above, he's clearly an extremely skilled polymath. I guess I just didn't want people feeling too demotivated over genetic factors, which play a big but not a full role. He may very well be a genius, though.
  - lightbendover 6y ago
    With every halfway decent engineer you personally know, go compete in a major competition he won by himself in his early 20s and then repeat your statement. The archives are all online, take your time.
    - meowface 6y ago
      I'm probably biased because I competed in those competitions in college and do know some people who did very well (though of course not as well as him). He's definitely a > 99th percentile RE and hacker, to be sure. I was just talking about raw cognitive ability, but he absolutely may very well be > 99th percentile there as well.
ackbar03 6y ago
Was this written by GPT-3? This is such a strange sentence But yes George is definitely the misfit hacker wonder-kid type, and in both senses of the word hacker. He was one of the first to jailbreak the iPhone and the PS4 or 5 (can't remember which)
- dpacmittal 6y ago
  It was PS3

raziel2p 6y ago

The most surprising part about this to me is that there seems to be a somewhat standardized computer interface for controlling cars with an external device. I would never have guessed that, I thought for sure every maker would come up with their own unique design and require you to buy adapters or whatnot.

retSava 6y ago
It's mandated by regulation in all cars after..2002? It's a port most often situated close to the steering wheel, the interface is a bog standard CAN bus. Where it differs between cars is what command sets are used and allowed (eg sometimes proprietary ones are used, and controlling things may not be possible). It's common to extract diagnostics about the car from this port. For example, when buying a used car this is highly recommended. Buy a cheap adapter that you plug in, connect to it over BT from a phone, and read out error codes. Perhaps the owner has temporarily put out an error to mask it during your inspection?
- raziel2p 6y ago
  > Perhaps the owner has temporarily put out an error to mask it during your inspection? To be clear, I don't have a car or a driver's licence, I was just surprised that this standardization was a thing at all. Seems like a stark contrast to all the walled gardens in every other technology-related industry these days.
  - voqv 6y ago
    Actually not really all cars have one standard. Most German cars use Flexray which Openpilot does not currently support and is a bit more tricky to hack into as described by Comma.ai: https://medium.com/@comma_ai/hacking-an-audi-performing-a-man-in-the-middle-attack-on-flexray-2710b1d29f3f https://medium.com/@comma_ai/hacking-an-audi-performing-a-ma...
    - bipson 6y ago
      Only very recent cars use Flexray, and also not true for all manufacturers. CAN is still widely used, and some want to skip Flexray entirely for the next thing...

qznc 6y ago

It is clearly labeled "level 2" so calling that "autonomy" is misleading.

kriro 6y ago

Very nicely executed device with a good price point. Of course it's an utter nightmare with regards to privacy and I'd be very nervous regarding security and safety when I'd hand over the controls of my car to basically an android phone. Maybe I skimmed over it but I'd be interested in knowing which phones they use exactly. So I applaud the engineering but it's not a device I'd buy (and yes I do own and carry around a cell phone).

aartvs 6y ago
According to the article it is a LeEco Le Pro 3
Ftuuky 6y ago
The android phone they use for the comma two is a LeEco Le Pro 3.
bipson 6y ago
My main concern would be that the architecture of an OTS Android system does not offer any guarantees regarding real-time i.e. hard deadlines. Ever had an android app or even the whole phone locking up? Even if it is only for a second or two, I don't want this to happen to a device that feeds live data into my car's controller. Even if this is only level 2 driver assist. If a car would get a bogus "you are crossing a divider line" signal for e.g. 2 seconds, it would start to steer quite persistently (even if with limited force) in a certain direction and you would have to counter that action. Nope, I wouldn't use this.
- BunsanSpace 6y ago
  I think thats the ultimate plan, but if you listen to GeoHotz talk about it, he really wants an economical self driving solution. E.g. waymo cars cost 100k+ and thus isn't economical. It's also opensource so I think the end game is to have manufactures adopt this and go through the whole song and dance of getting it full validated on their vehicles.
  - cartoonworld 6y ago

DoingIsLearning 6y ago

The project contains software that acts as functional safety software in a vehicle, so ISO 26262 should apply. I couldn't find any reference to this in the repository or landing page? Some sources mention it is for research only purposes (in closed roads?), others advertise this as a CES consumer product, has the project evolved along the way? Each car manufacturer has to provide a battery of tests to regulators for each vehicle and sub-system within each vehicle. This project claims to be safe to use on more than 100 separate vehicles, perhaps I am missing something but this claim would require a considerable amount of evidence. I am all for open-source and experimentation but in cases where we cannot provide guarantees, this should be done on a private road at your own risk.

voqv 6y ago
Afaik you buy this thing as a dashcam and then flash the self driving software on your own at your own risk. This was done exactly when "the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) demanded that Comma.ai provide proof to regulators that its proposed device for self-driving cars would be safe". [1] I wonder if there's anything new around this development with regards to Comma.ai as this is status of 2016. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/selfdriving-safety/comma-ai-drops-self-driving-device-after-warning-from-u-s-regulators-idUSL1N1CY25X https://www.reuters.com/article/selfdriving-safety/comma-ai-...
- DoingIsLearning 6y ago
  > on your own at your own risk It is not just your own risk but also that of other pedestrians, cyclists, and drivers that share the road with you.
  - bipson 6y ago
    that's not what "at your own risk" means. "At your own risk" means you bear the risk (legally). If something happens, it is on you, and the manufacturer offloads any liability on you. That does not imply what the risks are. Life threatening? You are risking other people's lives.

CallMeJim 6y ago

I can see this influencing my next vehicle purchase. For those who are familiar with the project - what is the security situation like?

tylergetsay 6y ago
I run mine completely offline, it doesn't require an internet connection except every few months. This check can be disabled pretty easily.
- mediaman 6y ago
  It requires a weekly connection, which they implemented so that if there were a bug that were in an upgrade they could deploy it reasonably quickly. But as you say, it can be disabled, because it's open source.

person_of_color 6y ago

See also Ghost Locomotion, L3 device with more funding.

ProjectBarks 6y ago
$3,495 Separate $99/month subscription required. and according to their website.... > Coming soon > The delivery and use of Ghost products will depend on our ability to meet certain reliability and performance levels, as well as receiving applicable regulatory approvals, which could take longer for certain car models and in certain jurisdictions. We continuously work to improve the functionality of our products, and as a result, some of the features depicted herein may be delivered to you via over-the-air software updates or equipment upgrades.
p1esk 6y ago
There's nothing to see there.
- person_of_color 6y ago
  Its a scam?

CapricornNoble 6y ago

The article reads that OpenPilot uses facial recognition to detect a distracted driver.....Can that be fooled with an image, or perhaps a mannequin? I wonder if you could apply this autonomous car tech to vehicle-borne IEDs. The driver could dismount a few hundred meters short of the target and provide eyes-on ground-level surveillance (if for some reason you aren't using a UAV for the same) while the vehicle drives on a final attack vector.

throwaway744678 6y ago
They probably also check for movements, blinks, etc. In any case, it should be viewed as an help for the driver (beep when falling asleep), rather than something working against him. If you wan to actively fool the device, do as you please (the software is open-source, after all, you can probably fork it to disable that feature) but face the consequences: your life is on the line!
viraptor 6y ago
It's an open system. You don't have to fool it in that case. Just disable the distraction detection.

notmine1337 6y ago

I recommend George Hotz's livestream [1] to anybody interested in computer science, really fascinating. [1] : https://www.youtube.com/c/commaaiarchive/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/commaaiarchive/videos

canada_dry 6y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPQHv3z3MWY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPQHv3z3MWY Guess I'm old... cuz that was painful to watch. Reminded me of the juvenile videos that Digg founders released back in their heyday. Sometimes you don't want/need to see behind the curtain!
- freediver 6y ago
  His channel is recruiting tool for talent, not consumer facing PR. As such the content is very well suited.

dogma1138 6y ago

I wonder how regulators and most insurers treat those. It won’t surprise me if these might not be “road legal” modifications, or at least modifications that may incur additional criminal liability Im also pretty sure that insurers can use these to deny claims if accidents happen.

foiblesprickly 6y ago
ive been looking at getting this for my CRV for about 1 year. most insurance companies are fine with adding this device to your plan as ive inquired and read about several experiences with it.
- dogma1138 6y ago
  I wonder if they think it’s the same as aftermarket ADAS systems like MobilEye while it isn’t since it requires you to essentially flash your car.

jimmyjack 6y ago

I want a device that will not control the car but will give more a ton of real-time information, ideally projected on some corner of my windshield. Information including: 1. Speed limit for the area/road I am in. 2. Real time radar report telling me how many cars/pedestrians e.t.c are around me. 3. Information on common accident types in the area I am driving in. 4. For my corner of the world, it will be good to get a report on road status before I take the route - something like gravel, cratered e.t.c I suspect that something like this would sell like crazy for existing cars. Basically a thing were I install a camera/sensor that is hooked to such a device.

jbob2000 6y ago
It’s called a brain. You pay attention and read the speed signs as you enter an area. You use your peripheral vision to watch for pedestrians and traffic. And what would a report on common accidents be for, aside from some interesting statistical anomalies? You should still pay attention and drive safely, regardless of whether or not the area had 4 red light speeding tickets given last month or 8. You’re basically suggesting using a smartphone camera to walk around town, when you could just, y’know, use your eyes.
- Steltek 6y ago
  Umm, you first? How is the "use your brain and your eyes" safety strategy working out so far? Are you against ABS too? Shouldn't people just learn to pump their brakes? Computers assisting but not supplanting people's natural abilities is one of the utopian visions of how to use technology. GP's idea seems brilliant and the only downside is that 2020 has shown that lots of stupid people would proudly boast how they ignore the warnings or pump the statistics in the wrong direction. They would probably get a catchy name for themselves too.
- piva00 6y ago
  > You’re basically suggesting using a smartphone camera to walk around town, when you could just, y’know, use your eyes. Our brains are kinda specialised to process information at that speed, not at cars speeds. Having an augmented reality is definitely useful, the same way it's useful for you to have access to maps with realtime location in your phone while walking in the city. Why don't you use your brain and navigate solely through memory? You could still do it, why use a smartphone for navigation? Because it helps. The same is the case for augmenting information you have, in a car it can be quite useful if you end up missing a sign for the maximum speed (as I've done through Germany in some Autobahn stretches that change speed, most of the times due to construction). The same is the case of giving more spatial awareness through data, who is around you? That is the most basic skill you need as a driver, if there are systems to feed you this data in a quicker and more processable way rather than relying on other people's ability to maintain their attention to be checking their mirrors and keep awareness of their surroundings all the time, so be it. I do it all the time while driving, I don't trust others do the same. So you know, you could also use that brain a bit more.

nojvek 6y ago

I am willing to bet that the nimble AutoPilot selling <$1000 hardware and $25/month subscriptions will outlive the billion dollar giants like Cruise. CommaAI is small but it is a profitable company that controls its destiny. Waymo and Tesla have some hope. Cruise and Zoox are burning VC money like crazy with little to show.

05 6y ago
Zoox is burning Amazon's money now.
marc__1 6y ago
> Waymo and Tesla have some hope. Cruise and Zoox are burning VC money like crazy with little to show. The numbers for Cruise reported by GM [1]: As of six months Q22020, Cruise posted revenues of $53m and total expenses of $498m, compared to $50m in rev and $553m in expenses for the same six month period in 2019. Total cash in hand for Cruise is $2.2b with zero debt 2 more years of cash burn is not your typical startup that is 'burning VC money like crazy', but still the cash burn is large. Now the question is if Cruise can expect any revenue from the new DMV authorization in SF [2] [1] starts page 9 https://media.gm.com/content/dam/Media/gmcom/investor/2020/jul/gm-q2-2020-earnings-press-release.pdf https://media.gm.com/content/dam/Media/gmcom/investor/2020/j... [2] https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/news-and-media/dmv-authorizes-cruise-to-test-driverless-vehicles-in-san-francisco/ https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/news-and-media/dmv-authorizes-...
codezero 6y ago
Things that are that price point end up just getting acquired by auto manufacturers since the tech isn't used anywhere else, and they can run the price down by owning it and producing it at scale / having some competitive advantage temporarily.
dogma1138 6y ago
MobilEye has been selling ADAS kits for about a decade now. I’m not entirely sure why CommaAI is a special case here.

stuff4ben 6y ago

How long before we start seeing traditional car manufacturers just incorporating this into their vehicles? Why develop your own ADAS software when Comma.AI and OpenPilot can just plugin into their hardware?

qznc 6y ago
It would have to be much cheaper. I would guess a front camera from a Tier-1 supplier will cost the manufacturer some millions in development (fitting in physically, UI, and protocols) and then a few hundred per device once. Tier-1s optimize for every cent for mature features like ACC as the margins are low.

lenwood 6y ago

I haven't kept up with this space at all. I'm a bit surprised to learn that all that's required is a windshield attachment & software update. I find this simultaneously fascinating & scary.

ProjectBarks 6y ago

Interned for Comma AI. The tech is indeed chill.

rainbowzootsuit 6y ago
Did you happen to enable ghostride a whip [1] mode at any time? [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_riding https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_riding
pezo1919 6y ago
What is their payrate?
- kerneltoast 6y ago
  $1500/week

woeirua 6y ago

It's neat, and a good application of the technology, but honestly I don't see this taking off because the gap between the tech and execution is closing quickly. Comma was really far ahead of everyone 5 years ago. But... we have gone from a situation where the Level 2 systems available in most new cars went from an impractical gimmick, to very useful and comparable to this in just a few years. New Toyota's (MY 2020) are pretty comparable to this at no extra cost. It's really hard to see why you would buy this system for $1100 if you can just buy a new car and get this all for free, plus a bunch of additional safety features that OpenPilot obviously can't include: backup sensors, blind spot monitors, etc. I don't think manufacturers will outsource the development of their ADAS systems to Comma (or anyone else for that matter) because they view it as a potential short-term differentiator. The existing differentiators are collapsing quickly: reliability is no longer a major concern for EVs, infotainment is lost cause (Carplay and Android Auto won decisively). Aside from ADAS, we're looking at a scenario where in 10 years the only reason to buy from company X vs company Y might be price.

ProjectBarks 6y ago
I'm glad you are happy with your new Toyota but I think you are giving too much confidence in it's ability. Look at this evaluation between OpenPilot and Toyota TSS 2.0 https://youtu.be/z5-inxH92wM https://youtu.be/z5-inxH92wM Also free to checkout navigating SF with OpenPilot https://youtu.be/0TpMMoQ7GGg https://youtu.be/0TpMMoQ7GGg (30 min). I highly doubt you would find similar results with a Toyota TSS 2.0 system. Nevertheless, I will let the contents of the videos speak for themselves.
- woeirua 6y ago
  I have a Subaru with Eyesight, not a Toyota. But my point was more so that one of the most popular car manufacturers is giving away a system that is probably 70% as good as OpenPilot. Those videos didn't really change my mind. I'm not convinced at all that it's really that much better on the highway. It's definitely better for non-highway driving, but it also had a few disengagements that he had to intervene for. Look, if it was $1000 for Level 5 autonomy I would be the first in line to purchase it. But it's clearly not anywhere close to that yet.

stunt 6y ago

The huge video data set that their users are sharing with them could become a valuable asset for Comma AI.

DesolationJones 6y ago
They actually already make it available for anyone to buy. $250k for first month and 100k a month after. No one has bought the service yet apparently.

azinman2 6y ago

L4/L5 or crash. Anything below is dangerous because of the propensity for humans to rely on what seems to be working the majority of the time and artificially trust it, especially with a population trained to need to check their phones. We saw this with the infamous Uber training driver crash in AZ, we saw this with the Apple employee in the Tesla, and we'll continue to see this over and over again until we can finally remove the steering wheel so there's no possible ill-informed release of control. Naming L2 systems 'Autopilot' and a bunch of misleading marketing certainly doesn't help either.

shiftpgdn 6y ago
Nonsense. Airplanes can do 99.9% of their flying without human intervention, but we don't hear about planes slamming into mountain sides because a pilot was texting or browsing the internet. The problem is any idiot can get a drivers license that let's them pilot around a 5000lb steel cube for about $200 and 20 hours of training time. And punishments are extremely lax for when mistakes are made.
- wtetzner 6y ago
  >Nonsense > The problem is any idiot can get a drivers license that let's them pilot around a 5000lb steel cube I don't see how it's nonsense, given that the driver's license problem isn't going to be solved any time soon. The problem is that our society practically requires basically everyone to be able to drive to function, unless you happen to live in one of the relatively rare places with good public transportation.
- azinman2 6y ago
  Flying in the air above the clouds and mountains is nothing like driving on a road with pure unpredictability all around you and needing to solve close to AGI in order to achieve it.
bitbyt3r 6y ago
One major differentiator for openpilot is the active driver monitoring. If you keep checking your phone while it's activated it will disengage and eventually even refuse to engage. Other systems just make you nudge the wheel, but openpilot uses the front facing camera to watch your eyes.