7 ms·

> reading Chomsky as a teenager, Plato in college and Kant after that were much more significant events in terms of my political views I can relate a lot to th

by cblum 6y ago

> reading Chomsky as a teenager, Plato in college and Kant after that were much more significant events in terms of my political views I can relate a lot to this. I'd say my formative reads were: - 1984 and Brave New World. The former should be mandatory reading for everyone, everywhere. - The Bible. Going from "I was raised Christian" to "I'm gonna read this and ask myself if I really believe this stuff" (I do, but in general I deviate massively from mainstream evangelical Christianity). - Dune. Yep, profoundly transformative. I'm bummed that some people I've recommend it to don't seem to have had the same experience as I had reading it.

gautamcgoel 6y ago
It would be pretty ironic if we made it mandatory to read books like 1984.
- thu2111 6y ago
  Actually in a lot of schools, it is mandatory to read it! At least I recall being required to read it at high school. Honestly, I never appreciated the irony at the time, I suppose because the people in 1984 weren't really encouraged to read about alternative political realities. But you're right. That was pretty ironic.
- irrational 6y ago
  I grew up in a very liberal part of the country and I’m pretty sure I had to read every single book on the most banned book lists. I honestly don’t remember anything about any of them. I think it takes more that having to read the book and take a test or write a report about it to have some sort of effect.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    >I grew up in a very liberal part of the country and I’m pretty sure I had to read every single book on the most banned book lists. I honestly don’t remember anything about any of them Not surprising. What do you remember? Probably mostly the stuff where your teacher knocked it out of the park and did their best work. 1984 is a cautionary tale about communism but it applies to authoritarianism in general. A very left leaning state is simply going to have less people equipped to teach this lesson well than a right leaning state. It's really, really hard to do a good job teaching something that is ideologically uncomfortable. Say you have two english teachers, one grew up in the suburbs of NYC and one grew up in the Virginia panhandle. Who do you think has better odds of being able to knock a lesson about authoritarianism out of the park? Education systems are the average of the people that make them up. If you grew up somewhere where the dangers of strong government was the local ideological blind spot you probably didn't get a good education on the dangers of big government. The kids growing up in the Virginia panhandle have blind spots in their education too, just different ones. Don't expect kids growing up in the plains state to get too good of an education on the Indian wars. Don't expect the kids in the bible belt to spend much time talking about evolution. Obviously there's always outliers but education is a product of the states that make the curriculum and the teachers who teach them.
    - watwut 6y ago
      It sounds to me that you did not read 1984 and write about imagined people rather then real ones anyway.
      - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        What in my comment makes you say that?
        watwut 6y ago
        > 1984 is a cautionary tale about communism but it applies to authoritarianism in general. A very left leaning state is simply going to have less people equipped to teach this lesson well than a right leaning state. It's really, really hard to do a good job teaching something that is ideologically uncomfortable. This thing. There is nothing ideologically uncomfortable about 1984 for pretty much anyone in both NYC suburbs and Virginia.
        throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        >This thing. There is nothing ideologically uncomfortable about 1984 for pretty much anyone in both NYC suburbs and Virginia. You don't think a pool of people (mostly) from a big government state that's been big government for a long time (in retrospect I should have picked Boston as it's a far better example) are gonna have a harder time teaching about the dangers of the extremes of big government than a pool of people who's ancestors are known for untaxed booze and trying to leave the union? You don't think that when the (hypothetical average) teacher tries to provoke class discussion by asking about modern implications the teacher who grew up in the latter culture might be a little bit better at provoking a good discussion?
        watwut 6y ago
        No I dont, because I read that book and also know what American liberals talk about. You are strawmanning both. For that matter, you are making Virginians into caricature and you are almost mocking American revolution.
- watwut 6y ago
  We had it like that in school in literature. I don't even find it ironic. It was good book, had cultural impact, so it even made sense. 1984 is not an anarchist dream that would teach that every single mandatory thing is bad. It is about dystopian totalitarian state, but that does not imply there is something ironic about mandatory school reading.
- PartiallyTyped 6y ago
  I consider whether to buy 'the industrial society and its future' from amazon, along with 'The communist manifesto', to read for myself, but the irony in this keeps stopping me.
  - krebs_liebhaber 6y ago
    Why bother buying them? Neither work is under copyright. You can read them for free online: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-m... https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/fc-industrial-society-and-its-future.pdf https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/fc-industrial-societ... (TLDR: Marx aged like milk, Uncle Ted like wine.)
    - PartiallyTyped 6y ago
      I spend most of my day on a computer so I prefer to have some limits. I read at around 9-10pm, so I prefer to avoid screens so as to not damage the quality of my sleep.
      - quacked 6y ago
        Well, print out a PDF.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
RobertoG 6y ago
>>"[..] some people I've recommend it to don't seem to have had the same experience as I had reading it. " I'm reading Dune again at the moment. I think that when you read a book in your life is pretty important too. The cynic (and more knowledgeable, I suppose) me of today, would be more difficult to affect than the naive young of yesterday.
high_5 6y ago
I would pick the same books but Dune (now I'm intrigued). Especially 1984 is much more than just about surveillance technology which I think most people tend to be focused on.
yodsanklai 6y ago
> 1984 Agree, without exaggeration it's the book that had the most impact on me. > Brave New World Read it when I was a teenager, I think I didn't get the point at the time. > The Bible I'm 100% atheist but I've considered reading the bible because it's culturally significant. But isn't just a bunch of boring and inconsistent tales? is there really anything to be learned from the bible?
- Udo 6y ago
  > I'm 100% atheist but I've considered reading the bible because it's culturally significant. But isn't just a bunch of boring and inconsistent tales? is there really anything to be learned from the bible? I went to a school that taught ancient Latin, Greek, and Hebrew. With that came loads of bible passages to translate. Having grown up a non-believer (many people tried to literally "cure" that during my lifetime, I'm sure they'd be thrilled to know there is a simple drug I could take to make me normal) I can honestly say it's about what you'd expect from religious texts of those time periods. I found it less relatable than, say, Greek mythology. What I found interesting is how many parts modern Christians habitually ignore, either because they'd be arrested if they'd follow them, or because those parts don't fit in with their personal beliefs. Of course, the entire corpus of text has also seen numerous redactions, in an effort to streamline it and make it more coherent (with mixed results). Is it culturally significant? Honestly, I'm not sure. The Bible as an idea sure is, and certain famous passages are. But a given group's or individual's interpretation of it seems more informative, and that's often only losely based on those ancient texts. Needless to say, I don't think there is anything in there to convince a non-believer of the existence of dieties, much less that one specific pantheon. And to be fair I don't think that's what the authors had in mind. It was probably intended as a shared folklore for groups that already strongly believe. Conversion, I suspect, comes through missionaries, not through the text.
  - humanrebar 6y ago
    > What I found interesting is how many parts modern Christians habitually ignore, either because they'd be arrested if they'd follow them, or because those parts don't fit in with their personal beliefs. Of course, the entire corpus of text has also seen numerous redactions, in an effort to streamline it and make it more coherent (with mixed results). The parts you describe are a history book. They are not meant to be normative to someone living in a modern Western Democratic context. They are background to explain a people, a time, and a discontinued form of government. Other more pertinent parts of the Bible (see the prophets or the epistles referring to The Law) make sense with that background available. I also suspect there's some deeper truth buried in those laws about what happens if a community stays distinct, and how that can be enacted (clothing, food, calendar, etc.). And there's certainly a lot of history of the Hebrew people to describe what happens when distinction and noteriety happens, even through long periods of diaspora. Finally, it's worth having some historical context. Considering the Israelites of the time to be unconscionable doesn't take into account what the typical society looked like in that time and place.
notdang 6y ago
That was quite a transition from Chomsky, Plato and Kant to 1984, Bible and Dune.

by cblum 6y ago

gautamcgoel 6y ago

It would be pretty ironic if we made it mandatory to read books like 1984.

thu2111 6y ago
Actually in a lot of schools, it is mandatory to read it! At least I recall being required to read it at high school. Honestly, I never appreciated the irony at the time, I suppose because the people in 1984 weren't really encouraged to read about alternative political realities. But you're right. That was pretty ironic.
irrational 6y ago
I grew up in a very liberal part of the country and I’m pretty sure I had to read every single book on the most banned book lists. I honestly don’t remember anything about any of them. I think it takes more that having to read the book and take a test or write a report about it to have some sort of effect.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  >I grew up in a very liberal part of the country and I’m pretty sure I had to read every single book on the most banned book lists. I honestly don’t remember anything about any of them Not surprising. What do you remember? Probably mostly the stuff where your teacher knocked it out of the park and did their best work. 1984 is a cautionary tale about communism but it applies to authoritarianism in general. A very left leaning state is simply going to have less people equipped to teach this lesson well than a right leaning state. It's really, really hard to do a good job teaching something that is ideologically uncomfortable. Say you have two english teachers, one grew up in the suburbs of NYC and one grew up in the Virginia panhandle. Who do you think has better odds of being able to knock a lesson about authoritarianism out of the park? Education systems are the average of the people that make them up. If you grew up somewhere where the dangers of strong government was the local ideological blind spot you probably didn't get a good education on the dangers of big government. The kids growing up in the Virginia panhandle have blind spots in their education too, just different ones. Don't expect kids growing up in the plains state to get too good of an education on the Indian wars. Don't expect the kids in the bible belt to spend much time talking about evolution. Obviously there's always outliers but education is a product of the states that make the curriculum and the teachers who teach them.
  - watwut 6y ago
    It sounds to me that you did not read 1984 and write about imagined people rather then real ones anyway.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      What in my comment makes you say that?
      - watwut 6y ago
        > 1984 is a cautionary tale about communism but it applies to authoritarianism in general. A very left leaning state is simply going to have less people equipped to teach this lesson well than a right leaning state. It's really, really hard to do a good job teaching something that is ideologically uncomfortable. This thing. There is nothing ideologically uncomfortable about 1984 for pretty much anyone in both NYC suburbs and Virginia.
        throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        >This thing. There is nothing ideologically uncomfortable about 1984 for pretty much anyone in both NYC suburbs and Virginia. You don't think a pool of people (mostly) from a big government state that's been big government for a long time (in retrospect I should have picked Boston as it's a far better example) are gonna have a harder time teaching about the dangers of the extremes of big government than a pool of people who's ancestors are known for untaxed booze and trying to leave the union? You don't think that when the (hypothetical average) teacher tries to provoke class discussion by asking about modern implications the teacher who grew up in the latter culture might be a little bit better at provoking a good discussion?
        watwut 6y ago
        No I dont, because I read that book and also know what American liberals talk about. You are strawmanning both. For that matter, you are making Virginians into caricature and you are almost mocking American revolution.
watwut 6y ago
We had it like that in school in literature. I don't even find it ironic. It was good book, had cultural impact, so it even made sense. 1984 is not an anarchist dream that would teach that every single mandatory thing is bad. It is about dystopian totalitarian state, but that does not imply there is something ironic about mandatory school reading.
PartiallyTyped 6y ago
I consider whether to buy 'the industrial society and its future' from amazon, along with 'The communist manifesto', to read for myself, but the irony in this keeps stopping me.
- krebs_liebhaber 6y ago
  Why bother buying them? Neither work is under copyright. You can read them for free online: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-m... https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/fc-industrial-society-and-its-future.pdf https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/fc-industrial-societ... (TLDR: Marx aged like milk, Uncle Ted like wine.)
  - PartiallyTyped 6y ago
    I spend most of my day on a computer so I prefer to have some limits. I read at around 9-10pm, so I prefer to avoid screens so as to not damage the quality of my sleep.
    - quacked 6y ago
      Well, print out a PDF.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

RobertoG 6y ago

>>"[..] some people I've recommend it to don't seem to have had the same experience as I had reading it. " I'm reading Dune again at the moment. I think that when you read a book in your life is pretty important too. The cynic (and more knowledgeable, I suppose) me of today, would be more difficult to affect than the naive young of yesterday.

high_5 6y ago

I would pick the same books but Dune (now I'm intrigued). Especially 1984 is much more than just about surveillance technology which I think most people tend to be focused on.

yodsanklai 6y ago

> 1984 Agree, without exaggeration it's the book that had the most impact on me. > Brave New World Read it when I was a teenager, I think I didn't get the point at the time. > The Bible I'm 100% atheist but I've considered reading the bible because it's culturally significant. But isn't just a bunch of boring and inconsistent tales? is there really anything to be learned from the bible?

Udo 6y ago
> I'm 100% atheist but I've considered reading the bible because it's culturally significant. But isn't just a bunch of boring and inconsistent tales? is there really anything to be learned from the bible? I went to a school that taught ancient Latin, Greek, and Hebrew. With that came loads of bible passages to translate. Having grown up a non-believer (many people tried to literally "cure" that during my lifetime, I'm sure they'd be thrilled to know there is a simple drug I could take to make me normal) I can honestly say it's about what you'd expect from religious texts of those time periods. I found it less relatable than, say, Greek mythology. What I found interesting is how many parts modern Christians habitually ignore, either because they'd be arrested if they'd follow them, or because those parts don't fit in with their personal beliefs. Of course, the entire corpus of text has also seen numerous redactions, in an effort to streamline it and make it more coherent (with mixed results). Is it culturally significant? Honestly, I'm not sure. The Bible as an idea sure is, and certain famous passages are. But a given group's or individual's interpretation of it seems more informative, and that's often only losely based on those ancient texts. Needless to say, I don't think there is anything in there to convince a non-believer of the existence of dieties, much less that one specific pantheon. And to be fair I don't think that's what the authors had in mind. It was probably intended as a shared folklore for groups that already strongly believe. Conversion, I suspect, comes through missionaries, not through the text.
- humanrebar 6y ago
  > What I found interesting is how many parts modern Christians habitually ignore, either because they'd be arrested if they'd follow them, or because those parts don't fit in with their personal beliefs. Of course, the entire corpus of text has also seen numerous redactions, in an effort to streamline it and make it more coherent (with mixed results). The parts you describe are a history book. They are not meant to be normative to someone living in a modern Western Democratic context. They are background to explain a people, a time, and a discontinued form of government. Other more pertinent parts of the Bible (see the prophets or the epistles referring to The Law) make sense with that background available. I also suspect there's some deeper truth buried in those laws about what happens if a community stays distinct, and how that can be enacted (clothing, food, calendar, etc.). And there's certainly a lot of history of the Hebrew people to describe what happens when distinction and noteriety happens, even through long periods of diaspora. Finally, it's worth having some historical context. Considering the Israelites of the time to be unconscionable doesn't take into account what the typical society looked like in that time and place.

notdang 6y ago

That was quite a transition from Chomsky, Plato and Kant to 1984, Bible and Dune.