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fizz buzz In my head I just think - Bro why are you asking me to paste code I can memorise? I use this to figure out which jobs I don't want. It's not the be

fizz buzz In my head I just think - Bro why are you asking me to paste code I can memorise? I use this to figure out which jobs I don't want. It's not the best metric but its worked ok so far.

raverbashing 6y ago
Seconded If you ask me about fizzbuzz I'll complain. Or maybe try to do it in a quirky way You should have addressed if the candidate knows how to write basic code in the phone interview, not wasting my time with a stupid problem on a whiteboard
- lifeisstillgood 6y ago
  >>> Or maybe try to do it in a quirky way Fantastic - you have just shown an ability to play with code, indicating you are likely to be good at the basic part of the job. Honestly "fizzbuzz" is short hand for "eliminate the set of people who apply for every coding job, but have no ability to code, or can only just take existing code and twist it about" (this last I used to think was laziness, but I think there is an ability to execute code in your head that is necessary - and if you can't do that then making any changes to a code base is scary because you cannot reason about it.) Do I use fizzbuzz anymore? No because it has been years since I have had to go "out to market" - but if I am interviewing you then I will have checked you pass this - reading your code, talking to co workers. I don't go in cold very often any more.
  - ionwake 6y ago
    But you are also eliminating those that "feel" its a question that should not be asked to experienced developers that would otherwise be excellent hires. I seem not to be the only one. (im not saying Im right in this)
    - ProZsolt 6y ago
      Till you found somebody with 10+ years of "experience" who can sell himself well. We skip this question because of seniority. Hire him and turns out he struggles with basic for loop. This happened at my previous company.
      - raverbashing 6y ago
        Then your interview process needs to be reviewed. You can filter people who can't make fore loops works without resorting to fizzbuzz
    - lifeisstillgood 6y ago
      I suppose it would eliminate those that would walk out of an interview if asked to do fizzbuzz. I guess if someone genuinely objects to the "easy" question we can jump into some harder technical areas but I would definitely see it as a red flag. Will they refuse to manually fix up the test data because it is "beneath" them? Will they think that getting the HTML to float right on that screen is for juniors only? At some point meet the interviewer halfway.
      - MauranKilom 6y ago
        Makes me want to write a crazy arcane C++ fizzbuzz answer in the style of [0]... [0]: https://aphyr.com/posts/340-acing-the-technical-interview https://aphyr.com/posts/340-acing-the-technical-interview
onion2k 6y ago
Bro why are you asking me to paste code I can memorise? Because fizzbuzz isn't about the code. It's a starting point for a candidate to show an ability to code something, and an understanding of the requirements, and an ability to talk about their code and why it does things in the particular way they wrote it, and to discuss what the next steps would be (streaming, optimizations, etc). If the coding test is literally just 'write fizzbuzz' then it's a terrible test, but if it's more like 'write fizzbuzz and then we'll talk about it' then it can be a great test. Coding interviews (and just coding as an art really) should never be about solving a problem in a limited amount of time. The problems we face as developers usually need a few rounds of thinking, experimentation, more thinking, implementation, optimization, and so on. You can't do that process properly in an interview. Using things like fizzbuzz is an attempt at a shortcut. Also, as someone who interviewed lots of people and used fizzbuzz as a test in the past, I can assure you that simply being capable of implementing it takes you out of the bottom 30% or so. Being able to talk about it and suggest ways to do more with it, or to extend it, would put you in the top 30%. There are a lot of developers out there who are not great.
- ionwake 6y ago
  EDIT > just to be clear, I am completely aware of the different reasons you ask for fizzbuzz, but I know that the question can be completely rehearsed and revised with a few minutes of work. If you are using it as a metric I feel you are a poor judge. In my experience, I have been unable to comply with the fizzbuzz questions in interviews - which has generally ended with me or the interviewer slowly closing the interview. At the same time I was one of 2 people who built a major airlines checkin system within a couple of months. The interview for this role? A phone call, after looking through my CV. The roles which asked me fizz buzz? generic roles in companies that since went nowhere, I even got a callback telling me the technical hiring manager had since been fired ( or left ) and if I would re consider interviewing, which I then had to turn down. I am not saying you are wrong, I am probably wrong to judge a person if they are assessing my years of experience with a test aimed at an 18 year old. But be aware of how fizzbuzz makes some developers react.
  - josephg 6y ago
mxcrossb 6y ago
Fizz buzz is great in a nihilistic way. The interviewer is basically saying “It’s impossible to judge coding skill in a short interview. So I’ll just make sure you’re not a total fraud”
lifeisstillgood 6y ago
>>> code I can memorise As an aside this reminded me of "benefit of clergy", where one could get a reduction in sentence if you could prove you were literate in court - by reading out a Psalm in Latin. Now, as it was always the same psalm, illiterate people could memorise the psalm and recite it as if reading. (of course this was a legal fiction to allow courts to avoid handing out death sentences to all comers). The thing is fizzbuzz is like Miserere Mei - it's a quick proxy for a form of literacy. Yes, anyone already literate could easily swot up that psalm. But anyone not literate could only learn the words off by heart - and any simple test such as read the next psalm, would unmask them. So the easiness of fizzbuzz is kind of the point - we are not trying to work out if you are Phd or undergrad level. Just literate. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_of_clergy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_of_clergy
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > this reminded me of "benefit of clergy", where one could get a reduction in sentence if you could prove you were literate in court - by reading out a Psalm in Latin. Now, as it was always the same psalm, illiterate people could memorise the psalm and recite it as if reading. IIRC, until the literacy test was abolished and the benefit made generally applicable to first-time offenders, the judge had the option of demanding a different work.be read if he suspected the privilege was being abused. > (of course this was a legal fiction to allow courts to avoid handing out death sentences to all comers). Well, it evolved into such a fiction (and eventually even the literacy test was removed). But it didn't originate as one, and didn't originally involve a sentence reduction but transfer to ecclesiastical court from secular court.

fizz buzz In my head I just think - Bro why are you asking me to paste code I can memorise? I use this to figure out which jobs I don't want. It's not the best metric but its worked ok so far.

raverbashing 6y ago

Seconded If you ask me about fizzbuzz I'll complain. Or maybe try to do it in a quirky way You should have addressed if the candidate knows how to write basic code in the phone interview, not wasting my time with a stupid problem on a whiteboard

lifeisstillgood 6y ago
>>> Or maybe try to do it in a quirky way Fantastic - you have just shown an ability to play with code, indicating you are likely to be good at the basic part of the job. Honestly "fizzbuzz" is short hand for "eliminate the set of people who apply for every coding job, but have no ability to code, or can only just take existing code and twist it about" (this last I used to think was laziness, but I think there is an ability to execute code in your head that is necessary - and if you can't do that then making any changes to a code base is scary because you cannot reason about it.) Do I use fizzbuzz anymore? No because it has been years since I have had to go "out to market" - but if I am interviewing you then I will have checked you pass this - reading your code, talking to co workers. I don't go in cold very often any more.
- ionwake 6y ago
  But you are also eliminating those that "feel" its a question that should not be asked to experienced developers that would otherwise be excellent hires. I seem not to be the only one. (im not saying Im right in this)
  - ProZsolt 6y ago
    Till you found somebody with 10+ years of "experience" who can sell himself well. We skip this question because of seniority. Hire him and turns out he struggles with basic for loop. This happened at my previous company.
    - raverbashing 6y ago
      Then your interview process needs to be reviewed. You can filter people who can't make fore loops works without resorting to fizzbuzz
  - lifeisstillgood 6y ago
    I suppose it would eliminate those that would walk out of an interview if asked to do fizzbuzz. I guess if someone genuinely objects to the "easy" question we can jump into some harder technical areas but I would definitely see it as a red flag. Will they refuse to manually fix up the test data because it is "beneath" them? Will they think that getting the HTML to float right on that screen is for juniors only? At some point meet the interviewer halfway.
    - MauranKilom 6y ago
      Makes me want to write a crazy arcane C++ fizzbuzz answer in the style of [0]... [0]: https://aphyr.com/posts/340-acing-the-technical-interview https://aphyr.com/posts/340-acing-the-technical-interview

onion2k 6y ago

Bro why are you asking me to paste code I can memorise? Because fizzbuzz isn't about the code. It's a starting point for a candidate to show an ability to code something, and an understanding of the requirements, and an ability to talk about their code and why it does things in the particular way they wrote it, and to discuss what the next steps would be (streaming, optimizations, etc). If the coding test is literally just 'write fizzbuzz' then it's a terrible test, but if it's more like 'write fizzbuzz and then we'll talk about it' then it can be a great test. Coding interviews (and just coding as an art really) should never be about solving a problem in a limited amount of time. The problems we face as developers usually need a few rounds of thinking, experimentation, more thinking, implementation, optimization, and so on. You can't do that process properly in an interview. Using things like fizzbuzz is an attempt at a shortcut. Also, as someone who interviewed lots of people and used fizzbuzz as a test in the past, I can assure you that simply being capable of implementing it takes you out of the bottom 30% or so. Being able to talk about it and suggest ways to do more with it, or to extend it, would put you in the top 30%. There are a lot of developers out there who are not great.

ionwake 6y ago
EDIT > just to be clear, I am completely aware of the different reasons you ask for fizzbuzz, but I know that the question can be completely rehearsed and revised with a few minutes of work. If you are using it as a metric I feel you are a poor judge. In my experience, I have been unable to comply with the fizzbuzz questions in interviews - which has generally ended with me or the interviewer slowly closing the interview. At the same time I was one of 2 people who built a major airlines checkin system within a couple of months. The interview for this role? A phone call, after looking through my CV. The roles which asked me fizz buzz? generic roles in companies that since went nowhere, I even got a callback telling me the technical hiring manager had since been fired ( or left ) and if I would re consider interviewing, which I then had to turn down. I am not saying you are wrong, I am probably wrong to judge a person if they are assessing my years of experience with a test aimed at an 18 year old. But be aware of how fizzbuzz makes some developers react.
- josephg 6y ago

mxcrossb 6y ago

Fizz buzz is great in a nihilistic way. The interviewer is basically saying “It’s impossible to judge coding skill in a short interview. So I’ll just make sure you’re not a total fraud”

lifeisstillgood 6y ago

>>> code I can memorise As an aside this reminded me of "benefit of clergy", where one could get a reduction in sentence if you could prove you were literate in court - by reading out a Psalm in Latin. Now, as it was always the same psalm, illiterate people could memorise the psalm and recite it as if reading. (of course this was a legal fiction to allow courts to avoid handing out death sentences to all comers). The thing is fizzbuzz is like Miserere Mei - it's a quick proxy for a form of literacy. Yes, anyone already literate could easily swot up that psalm. But anyone not literate could only learn the words off by heart - and any simple test such as read the next psalm, would unmask them. So the easiness of fizzbuzz is kind of the point - we are not trying to work out if you are Phd or undergrad level. Just literate. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_of_clergy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_of_clergy

dragonwriter 6y ago
> this reminded me of "benefit of clergy", where one could get a reduction in sentence if you could prove you were literate in court - by reading out a Psalm in Latin. Now, as it was always the same psalm, illiterate people could memorise the psalm and recite it as if reading. IIRC, until the literacy test was abolished and the benefit made generally applicable to first-time offenders, the judge had the option of demanding a different work.be read if he suspected the privilege was being abused. > (of course this was a legal fiction to allow courts to avoid handing out death sentences to all comers). Well, it evolved into such a fiction (and eventually even the literacy test was removed). But it didn't originate as one, and didn't originally involve a sentence reduction but transfer to ecclesiastical court from secular court.