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Don't conflate 'religion' with 'arbitrary beliefs'. Of course within religion there is going to be a lot of 'arbitrary belief', but that's not what it is essen

by jariel 6y ago

Don't conflate 'religion' with 'arbitrary beliefs'. Of course within religion there is going to be a lot of 'arbitrary belief', but that's not what it is essentially. 'Parables' etc. are a function of how it's communicated and propagated, ironically, for the 'dumber folks' who 'need something material to believe in' and for whom more abstract concepts don't provide solace. Religion is a metaphysical perspective of existence, one based on spirituality from which we develop our humanity, morality etc. and none of that is irrational. Our earliest civilizations often confounded civic norms, civil law, religion, faith, cultural history etc. into the same sphere, from that you get things like the Torah for example (i.e. 'The Law') which is like a legal code, moral code, civic code, national history rolled into one. Since the Common Era (i.e. about Jesus' time) religion has developed into a more strictly moral and spiritual sphere, less so the core civic stuff, but it still lays at the foundation of all of our institutions ... especially ironically our University system, and partly medical systems depending where you're from. Our current scientifically materialist 'belief' whereupon we are all merely bags of tiny particles, randomly interacting in accordance with a few 'known forces' - which almost by definition denies the very existence of things which we otherwise believe exist - like 'life', 'love', 'intelligence' etc. is a pretty bizarre bit of irrationality that we somehow don't bother ourselves much about. Barack Obama along with the majority of our leaders of all kinds are religious and not in the Machiavellian 'fake' sense whereby he 'need to appear religious to get elected', so let's not write them off as idiots and contemplate maybe our crude and easy dismissal is too often misplaced. Yes, ideological conformism and orthodoxy are going to appeal to certain groups, and that's nice point, but it would be confusing the issue. And of course ... we all have some truly irrational beliefs.

pier25 6y ago
> Religion is a metaphysical perspective of existence, one based on spirituality from which we develop our humanity, morality etc. and none of that is irrational. Humans have been naturally selected to cooperate over millions of years. Religion only exists because we yearn the feeling of community which is biological and it only makes sense that a unified culture makes a group most likely to survive. Also, any belief based on magical thinking (very present in religious people) is intrinsically irrational.
- jariel 6y ago
  "Religion only exists because we yearn the feeling of community " No, community is only part of it, and frankly, that we lived in communities beforehand is not relevant. Religion is the 'foundational philosophy concerning nature of who we are' that transcends most other subjects - i.e. it's metaphysics at it's core. The 'community' part arises only in the same way secular civic and legal issues arise in our own communities. The misunderstanding is partly evident in your comment about 'very religious people'. You're conflating 'people who say they are hardcore believers in XYZ' with necessarily 'very religious' people. Fred Rogers - a trained priest, started 'Mr Rogers Neighbourhood' and did that for 50 years to help communicate more intelligent ideals to children. He didn't mention the word 'God' a single time on air, you wouldn't know directly that he was 'deeply religious'. Fred was not 'anti science' or someone we might normally conflate with 'hyper religious'. As I indicated, Barack Obama is religious. He literally worked for the Church for a few years at the start of his career. One might argue his whole career was a bit missionary. Certainly Jimmy Cater's life - and Presidency - was that. They're also not what we would consider 'super religious' bent on 'magical thinking' - but Fred Rogers, Jimmy Carter, Barack Obama are who I would think of for example when contemplating who are 'the most religious people'. So in a way, the nature of the comment implies a kind of 'straw man' - plucking out those with the most specific and material orthodox 'beliefs' about a system, the kind for whom the parables are meant to be understood more literally because maybe they're not so capable of the more enlightened bits - and having them representative of 'the most religious' - which is a little unfair. The plebes are going to be prone to 'magical thinking' no matter what happens. 'Scientific materialism' as it applies to the nature of life etc. is a constant stream 'magical thinking' - the dissonance between 'physics' and 'morality' is a chasm completely too wide for anyone to seem to cross with sound thinking. And finally - every modern politicized subject, even those adhered to by 'intelligent people' is chock full of 'magical thinking'.
  - pier25 6y ago
    > Religion is the 'foundational philosophy concerning nature of who we are' that transcends most other subjects - i.e. it's metaphysics at it's core. Not at all. Religion is simply a set of practices and beliefs. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion I'm sure some practitioners have developed a philosophical understanding of it just as you can do with anything in life. > You're conflating 'people who say they are hardcore believers in XYZ' with necessarily 'very religious' people. It's the other way around. 'Very religious' people are 'hardcore believers'. I suspect the root of blind belief is the same in both cases though. Most likely biological in nature. In case it's not clear, I'm not saying religion is inherently bad, and I don't think religious people are completely irrational. What I'm saying is that religious belief is indeed irrational and fanaticism is bad (religious or not).

by jariel 6y ago

pier25 6y ago

> Religion is a metaphysical perspective of existence, one based on spirituality from which we develop our humanity, morality etc. and none of that is irrational. Humans have been naturally selected to cooperate over millions of years. Religion only exists because we yearn the feeling of community which is biological and it only makes sense that a unified culture makes a group most likely to survive. Also, any belief based on magical thinking (very present in religious people) is intrinsically irrational.

jariel 6y ago
"Religion only exists because we yearn the feeling of community " No, community is only part of it, and frankly, that we lived in communities beforehand is not relevant. Religion is the 'foundational philosophy concerning nature of who we are' that transcends most other subjects - i.e. it's metaphysics at it's core. The 'community' part arises only in the same way secular civic and legal issues arise in our own communities. The misunderstanding is partly evident in your comment about 'very religious people'. You're conflating 'people who say they are hardcore believers in XYZ' with necessarily 'very religious' people. Fred Rogers - a trained priest, started 'Mr Rogers Neighbourhood' and did that for 50 years to help communicate more intelligent ideals to children. He didn't mention the word 'God' a single time on air, you wouldn't know directly that he was 'deeply religious'. Fred was not 'anti science' or someone we might normally conflate with 'hyper religious'. As I indicated, Barack Obama is religious. He literally worked for the Church for a few years at the start of his career. One might argue his whole career was a bit missionary. Certainly Jimmy Cater's life - and Presidency - was that. They're also not what we would consider 'super religious' bent on 'magical thinking' - but Fred Rogers, Jimmy Carter, Barack Obama are who I would think of for example when contemplating who are 'the most religious people'. So in a way, the nature of the comment implies a kind of 'straw man' - plucking out those with the most specific and material orthodox 'beliefs' about a system, the kind for whom the parables are meant to be understood more literally because maybe they're not so capable of the more enlightened bits - and having them representative of 'the most religious' - which is a little unfair. The plebes are going to be prone to 'magical thinking' no matter what happens. 'Scientific materialism' as it applies to the nature of life etc. is a constant stream 'magical thinking' - the dissonance between 'physics' and 'morality' is a chasm completely too wide for anyone to seem to cross with sound thinking. And finally - every modern politicized subject, even those adhered to by 'intelligent people' is chock full of 'magical thinking'.
- pier25 6y ago
  > Religion is the 'foundational philosophy concerning nature of who we are' that transcends most other subjects - i.e. it's metaphysics at it's core. Not at all. Religion is simply a set of practices and beliefs. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion I'm sure some practitioners have developed a philosophical understanding of it just as you can do with anything in life. > You're conflating 'people who say they are hardcore believers in XYZ' with necessarily 'very religious' people. It's the other way around. 'Very religious' people are 'hardcore believers'. I suspect the root of blind belief is the same in both cases though. Most likely biological in nature. In case it's not clear, I'm not saying religion is inherently bad, and I don't think religious people are completely irrational. What I'm saying is that religious belief is indeed irrational and fanaticism is bad (religious or not).