2 ms·

> For example, in Salem, Massachusetts in 1695, people who said witches did not exist were the ones who were believed to be on the fringe. Indeed, but those pe

by pier25 6y ago

> For example, in Salem, Massachusetts in 1695, people who said witches did not exist were the ones who were believed to be on the fringe. Indeed, but those people were highly religious Puritans that emigrated to the New World because they were prosecuted in England. https://www.history.com/topics/colonial-america/puritanism https://www.history.com/topics/colonial-america/puritanism When you put those kind of people in isolation and a high stress situation you get those kinds of behaviors. > So the question we should all be asking ourselves is not, what is wrong with today's flat Earthers, but which of the mainstream beliefs we have today will end up being like the belief in witches in 1695? Totally agree. For example, climate change denial.

pdonis 6y ago
> When you put those kind of people in isolation and a high stress situation you get those kinds of behaviors. The Puritans were by no means the only people of that time who had mainstream beliefs that we now consider delusional. You'd be hard pressed to find any significant body of people of that time who didn't. > For example, climate change denial. I would also say, climate change alarmism. Which, if you are inclined to disagree (you might not be, I don't know, but I suspect at least some people reading this will be), illustrates another aspect of the problem: it's hard to improve mainstream beliefs when there is not general agreement over how to improve them--which new beliefs should take the place of the ones that are claimed to be wrong.
- pier25 6y ago
  > The Puritans were by no means the only people of that time who had mainstream beliefs that we now consider delusional. You'd be hard pressed to find any significant body of people of that time who didn't. We will be mocked for sure in 300 years but OTOH witch hunts maybe weren't as mainstream all over Europe as you might think. For example, in Europe between 1450 and 1750 35,000 witches were executed. Of those, only 1,000 were executed in Spain, Italy, and Portugal in 300 years which for sure were religious countries (I'm from Spain). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt#Early_Modern_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt#Early_Modern_Europe I'd be surprised if there wasn't some debate as to what caused those witch hunts. Was it societal paranoia or was it just a way for the church to exert their power? > I would also say, climate change alarmism. I don't know what you consider alarmism in this case, but the situation is certainly dire. I don't think it's far fetched to think that if we continue in business as usual, modern industrial civilization could be at risk. As a small example, consider the wildfires of Russia in 2010 which triggered an increase in the global price of grain and many experts believe that fueled the Arab spring revolutions of 2011. https://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/06/world/europe/06russia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/06/world/europe/06russia.htm... https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-change-and-rising-food-prices-heightened-arab-spring/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-change-an... https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2011/jul/17/bread-food-arab-spring https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2011/jul/17/bread-f...
  - pdonis 6y ago
    > witch hunts maybe weren't as mainstream all over Europe as you might think I didn't say they were. I didn't say all societies of that time had the same wrong mainstream beliefs as the Puritans. I just said they all had some wrong mainstream beliefs. > the situation is certainly dire. I don't think it's far fetched to think that if we continue in business as usual, modern industrial civilization could be at risk. I disagree (to be clear, I disagree about the "civilization could be at risk" part, I'm not saying I'm in favor of just continuing business as usual--I think there are certainly things we could and should do better). But I don't want to hijack the discussion into a debate about climate change and what we should do about it. My only point here is that there is significant disagreement on this point, and the various sides (there are more than two) can't all be right since they hold beliefs that are inconsistent with each other, so clearly some widely held belief in this area is wrong, we just have no consensus on which belief it is, so society as a whole can't make a correction.

by pier25 6y ago

pdonis 6y ago

> When you put those kind of people in isolation and a high stress situation you get those kinds of behaviors. The Puritans were by no means the only people of that time who had mainstream beliefs that we now consider delusional. You'd be hard pressed to find any significant body of people of that time who didn't. > For example, climate change denial. I would also say, climate change alarmism. Which, if you are inclined to disagree (you might not be, I don't know, but I suspect at least some people reading this will be), illustrates another aspect of the problem: it's hard to improve mainstream beliefs when there is not general agreement over how to improve them--which new beliefs should take the place of the ones that are claimed to be wrong.

pier25 6y ago
> The Puritans were by no means the only people of that time who had mainstream beliefs that we now consider delusional. You'd be hard pressed to find any significant body of people of that time who didn't. We will be mocked for sure in 300 years but OTOH witch hunts maybe weren't as mainstream all over Europe as you might think. For example, in Europe between 1450 and 1750 35,000 witches were executed. Of those, only 1,000 were executed in Spain, Italy, and Portugal in 300 years which for sure were religious countries (I'm from Spain). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt#Early_Modern_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt#Early_Modern_Europe I'd be surprised if there wasn't some debate as to what caused those witch hunts. Was it societal paranoia or was it just a way for the church to exert their power? > I would also say, climate change alarmism. I don't know what you consider alarmism in this case, but the situation is certainly dire. I don't think it's far fetched to think that if we continue in business as usual, modern industrial civilization could be at risk. As a small example, consider the wildfires of Russia in 2010 which triggered an increase in the global price of grain and many experts believe that fueled the Arab spring revolutions of 2011. https://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/06/world/europe/06russia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/06/world/europe/06russia.htm... https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-change-and-rising-food-prices-heightened-arab-spring/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-change-an... https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2011/jul/17/bread-food-arab-spring https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2011/jul/17/bread-f...
- pdonis 6y ago
  > witch hunts maybe weren't as mainstream all over Europe as you might think I didn't say they were. I didn't say all societies of that time had the same wrong mainstream beliefs as the Puritans. I just said they all had some wrong mainstream beliefs. > the situation is certainly dire. I don't think it's far fetched to think that if we continue in business as usual, modern industrial civilization could be at risk. I disagree (to be clear, I disagree about the "civilization could be at risk" part, I'm not saying I'm in favor of just continuing business as usual--I think there are certainly things we could and should do better). But I don't want to hijack the discussion into a debate about climate change and what we should do about it. My only point here is that there is significant disagreement on this point, and the various sides (there are more than two) can't all be right since they hold beliefs that are inconsistent with each other, so clearly some widely held belief in this area is wrong, we just have no consensus on which belief it is, so society as a whole can't make a correction.