5 ms·

I understand the theoretical argument, but empirically do you think the quality of ideas that people believe has increased from (say) 2000 to 2020? It seems li

I understand the theoretical argument, but empirically do you think the quality of ideas that people believe has increased from (say) 2000 to 2020? It seems like there's a lot more going on than just faster dissemination, and the way information travels these days might have introduced new asymmetries and inefficiencies.

rayiner 6y ago
I think the quality of ideas has improved. We focus on disinformation, but social media gets used for a lot of other things. Reading a dry article on police brutality (which let’s face it, people just skipped over in the past) is a lot less impactful than seeing something shared by a friend. I think we’re overestimating the effect of social media. A certain group of highly educated urban liberals is shocked by Trump. (And I don’t say this pejoratively. My college educated friends were literally despondent after he was elected.) And they’re looking for an explanation. And it so happened that social media became a major force around the same time. But I think that’s mostly, though not completely, a coincidence. Social media didn’t create Trump. Right wing populism is happening all over the world, in Europe, India, etc. Its a reaction to liberalism and globalism that’s been brewing for decades. And social media didn’t create Trump’s audience. My mom, a 70-year old Bangladeshi woman who has voted straight ticket Democrat since she was naturalized, thinks Trump is too unpolished, but loves his “energy” and “vigor.” She thinks he would be a “great President” if he could “implement his ideas.” My mom doesn’t have a Twitter account. (I think she’d love Boris Johnson, i.e. Trump with a bit more polish and competent.) She didn’t get this from Breitbart. She watches CNN in a loop all day. Social media isn’t not a factor, but I think folks overestimate how much of a factor.
- saluk 6y ago
  I'm not surprised at how your mom reacts to Trump. I'm surprised so many young people believe that covid is no big deal. I agree with you that the quality of our ideas has improved, but I also disagree in that the spread of our bad ideas has also improved. Concepts that were held by a fringe of society in the past, like the idea that the Earth is flat have grown their own communities who have interests in keeping those ideas alive. Ideas, bad and good, have gotten a lot stickier. With stickier ideas, the marketplace becomes worse, because nothing ever gets pruned out of it. Too much energy is spent on limiting the growth of bad ideas than can be spent on refining the better ideas.
  - tux1968 6y ago
    > I'm surprised so many young people believe that covid is no big deal. Have you ever entertained the idea that perhaps you're wrong and they're right? I mean it's at least possible that you've been lead to the wrong conclusion by systemic errors that have yet to be identified, and perhaps wont be for many years into the future.
- bosswipe 6y ago
  > Right wing populism is happening all over the world, in Europe, India, etc. Social media is happening all over the world. > A certain group of highly educated urban liberals is shocked by Trump. 3 million more people voted for Hillary than Trump. Biden is polling 10 points ahead of Trump.
  - TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
    If you are in favor of the popular vote movement, how do you reconcile that for residents of sparsely populated states like Wyoming? Why would such residents bother to vote at all under the popular vote? (I would not)
    - heurist 6y ago
      Parties would realign to more evenly split the electorate. Wyoming would still count.
      - TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
        Can you explain that? I do not understand.
        vharuck 6y ago
        A packed stadium rally in Pennsylvania would have about the same number of attendees as a packed stadium rally in Wyoming or Rhode Island. You couldn't just rely on predictable "safe states" won by voters going straight-party on ballots. As it is, there's barely any reason for a Democratic presidential nominee to show up in reliability red states, let alone offer them anything in a platform. Switching to a popular vote could lessen the current extremism.
        TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
        > A packed stadium rally in Pennsylvania would have about the same number of attendees as a packed stadium rally in Wyoming or Rhode Island. That’s absolutely ridiculous. Apparently you’ve never been to Wyoming, population 550,000. Pennsylvania has 12.8 million. Thank you for affirming my belief that a popular vote system is just as ridiculous for America.
- Karrot_Kream 6y ago
  > I think the quality of ideas has improved. We focus on disinformation, but social media gets used for a lot of other things. I'm not sure what anything else in your post has to do with the quality of ideas being better. You claim that right wing populism is a reaction to liberalism and globalism, and that ideas are getting better. This leads me to connect the dots and think that your claim is that right wing populism is a good idea. We know now, in hindsight, that the Treaty of Versailles and the Great Depression led directly to the circumstances that led to the rise of Hitler. And indeed, Hitler was not alone. Fascist dictators rose throughout this time period. Was the discourse worse then? Was it better then? This feels disingenuous. "Ideas are getting better." "Fascism is a natural reaction." Please, if you are trying to make a political point, say it. Don't tiptoe around it.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    I gave an example of the "good things" I was talking about: > Reading a dry article on police brutality (which let’s face it, people just skipped over in the past) is a lot less impactful than seeing something shared by a friend. Attitudes towards for example LGBT people and on racial issues are have advanced significantly since 2000, and I think social media has a lot to do with that. (One of the major issues cited by people for why they switched their opinion on same-sex marriage was knowing people in committed same-sex relationships. Social media makes those things more visible.) As to right-wing populism: it is not fascism, any more than left-wing populism is Jacobinism or anarchy. I don't think it's a "good thing" necessarily, but predictable and possibly necessary. I think Boris Johnson, for example, is absolutely what the U.K. needed, before it got swallowed up by the EU.
    - Karrot_Kream 6y ago
      > I gave an example of the "good things" I was talking about: >> Reading a dry article on police brutality (which let’s face it, people just skipped over in the past) is a lot less impactful than seeing something shared by a friend. > Attitudes towards for example LGBT people and on racial issues are have advanced significantly since 2000, and I think social media has a lot to do with that. (One of the major issues cited by people for why they switched their opinion on same-sex marriage was knowing people in committed same-sex relationships. Social media makes those things more visible.) Fair enough. I disagree. I think social media has also helped radicalize folks, though I feel that nothing has really changed (not a positive change either). The press was, after all, hopelessly partisan and sensational for most of the West's history. We just had a brief respite. But fair enough and thanks for clarifying. > As to right-wing populism: it is not fascism, any more than left-wing populism is Jacobinism or anarchy. What's the difference really? I'm not talking about the boogeyman "literally fascist" thing. Fascist regimes themselves frequently started out as right wing populist representative regimes. Hitler is a fantastic example of that transformation ad absurdum, but there are several other simpler ones, like Franco. And these fascist regimes often started out quite popular. And likewise with left populism. Stalin and Napoleon are left populism ad absurdum, but we have several more "mundane" examples, such as Tito or Hoxa. I think extremism is bad because of its tendency to flout the rule of law. I see that happening around the world all over again.
koolba 6y ago
America is all about quantity. And the quantity of ideas has exploded in the 21st century. We’re still figuring out how to find the pearls but giving carte blanche to a handful of tech monopolies is definitely not going to work.
- leptons 6y ago
  >America is all about quantity. America used to be about quality. Sure, quantity was still a thing but the "shining city on the hill" image of America was about quality. We've lost our way.
  - abduhl 6y ago
    "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she with silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" America has never been about quality. Quality is a result of vigorous and excessive competition.
    - bontaq 6y ago
      It is sort of funny to say, "America has never been about quality," while referencing a poem about immigrants who moved here for a better quality of life. I think you've missed something rather obvious.
syshum 6y ago
I do, but I also do not use or consume content from Either Facebook or Twitter so....
rhino369 6y ago
Same as it always was. My Trump supporting uncle on facebook was just a Pat Buchnnan supporting uncle at a bar.

rayiner 6y ago

I think the quality of ideas has improved. We focus on disinformation, but social media gets used for a lot of other things. Reading a dry article on police brutality (which let’s face it, people just skipped over in the past) is a lot less impactful than seeing something shared by a friend. I think we’re overestimating the effect of social media. A certain group of highly educated urban liberals is shocked by Trump. (And I don’t say this pejoratively. My college educated friends were literally despondent after he was elected.) And they’re looking for an explanation. And it so happened that social media became a major force around the same time. But I think that’s mostly, though not completely, a coincidence. Social media didn’t create Trump. Right wing populism is happening all over the world, in Europe, India, etc. Its a reaction to liberalism and globalism that’s been brewing for decades. And social media didn’t create Trump’s audience. My mom, a 70-year old Bangladeshi woman who has voted straight ticket Democrat since she was naturalized, thinks Trump is too unpolished, but loves his “energy” and “vigor.” She thinks he would be a “great President” if he could “implement his ideas.” My mom doesn’t have a Twitter account. (I think she’d love Boris Johnson, i.e. Trump with a bit more polish and competent.) She didn’t get this from Breitbart. She watches CNN in a loop all day. Social media isn’t not a factor, but I think folks overestimate how much of a factor.

saluk 6y ago
I'm not surprised at how your mom reacts to Trump. I'm surprised so many young people believe that covid is no big deal. I agree with you that the quality of our ideas has improved, but I also disagree in that the spread of our bad ideas has also improved. Concepts that were held by a fringe of society in the past, like the idea that the Earth is flat have grown their own communities who have interests in keeping those ideas alive. Ideas, bad and good, have gotten a lot stickier. With stickier ideas, the marketplace becomes worse, because nothing ever gets pruned out of it. Too much energy is spent on limiting the growth of bad ideas than can be spent on refining the better ideas.
- tux1968 6y ago
  > I'm surprised so many young people believe that covid is no big deal. Have you ever entertained the idea that perhaps you're wrong and they're right? I mean it's at least possible that you've been lead to the wrong conclusion by systemic errors that have yet to be identified, and perhaps wont be for many years into the future.
bosswipe 6y ago
> Right wing populism is happening all over the world, in Europe, India, etc. Social media is happening all over the world. > A certain group of highly educated urban liberals is shocked by Trump. 3 million more people voted for Hillary than Trump. Biden is polling 10 points ahead of Trump.
- TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
  If you are in favor of the popular vote movement, how do you reconcile that for residents of sparsely populated states like Wyoming? Why would such residents bother to vote at all under the popular vote? (I would not)
  - heurist 6y ago
    Parties would realign to more evenly split the electorate. Wyoming would still count.
    - TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
      Can you explain that? I do not understand.
      - vharuck 6y ago
        A packed stadium rally in Pennsylvania would have about the same number of attendees as a packed stadium rally in Wyoming or Rhode Island. You couldn't just rely on predictable "safe states" won by voters going straight-party on ballots. As it is, there's barely any reason for a Democratic presidential nominee to show up in reliability red states, let alone offer them anything in a platform. Switching to a popular vote could lessen the current extremism.
        TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
        > A packed stadium rally in Pennsylvania would have about the same number of attendees as a packed stadium rally in Wyoming or Rhode Island. That’s absolutely ridiculous. Apparently you’ve never been to Wyoming, population 550,000. Pennsylvania has 12.8 million. Thank you for affirming my belief that a popular vote system is just as ridiculous for America.
Karrot_Kream 6y ago
> I think the quality of ideas has improved. We focus on disinformation, but social media gets used for a lot of other things. I'm not sure what anything else in your post has to do with the quality of ideas being better. You claim that right wing populism is a reaction to liberalism and globalism, and that ideas are getting better. This leads me to connect the dots and think that your claim is that right wing populism is a good idea. We know now, in hindsight, that the Treaty of Versailles and the Great Depression led directly to the circumstances that led to the rise of Hitler. And indeed, Hitler was not alone. Fascist dictators rose throughout this time period. Was the discourse worse then? Was it better then? This feels disingenuous. "Ideas are getting better." "Fascism is a natural reaction." Please, if you are trying to make a political point, say it. Don't tiptoe around it.
- rayiner 6y ago
  I gave an example of the "good things" I was talking about: > Reading a dry article on police brutality (which let’s face it, people just skipped over in the past) is a lot less impactful than seeing something shared by a friend. Attitudes towards for example LGBT people and on racial issues are have advanced significantly since 2000, and I think social media has a lot to do with that. (One of the major issues cited by people for why they switched their opinion on same-sex marriage was knowing people in committed same-sex relationships. Social media makes those things more visible.) As to right-wing populism: it is not fascism, any more than left-wing populism is Jacobinism or anarchy. I don't think it's a "good thing" necessarily, but predictable and possibly necessary. I think Boris Johnson, for example, is absolutely what the U.K. needed, before it got swallowed up by the EU.
  - Karrot_Kream 6y ago
    > I gave an example of the "good things" I was talking about: >> Reading a dry article on police brutality (which let’s face it, people just skipped over in the past) is a lot less impactful than seeing something shared by a friend. > Attitudes towards for example LGBT people and on racial issues are have advanced significantly since 2000, and I think social media has a lot to do with that. (One of the major issues cited by people for why they switched their opinion on same-sex marriage was knowing people in committed same-sex relationships. Social media makes those things more visible.) Fair enough. I disagree. I think social media has also helped radicalize folks, though I feel that nothing has really changed (not a positive change either). The press was, after all, hopelessly partisan and sensational for most of the West's history. We just had a brief respite. But fair enough and thanks for clarifying. > As to right-wing populism: it is not fascism, any more than left-wing populism is Jacobinism or anarchy. What's the difference really? I'm not talking about the boogeyman "literally fascist" thing. Fascist regimes themselves frequently started out as right wing populist representative regimes. Hitler is a fantastic example of that transformation ad absurdum, but there are several other simpler ones, like Franco. And these fascist regimes often started out quite popular. And likewise with left populism. Stalin and Napoleon are left populism ad absurdum, but we have several more "mundane" examples, such as Tito or Hoxa. I think extremism is bad because of its tendency to flout the rule of law. I see that happening around the world all over again.

koolba 6y ago

America is all about quantity. And the quantity of ideas has exploded in the 21st century. We’re still figuring out how to find the pearls but giving carte blanche to a handful of tech monopolies is definitely not going to work.

leptons 6y ago
>America is all about quantity. America used to be about quality. Sure, quantity was still a thing but the "shining city on the hill" image of America was about quality. We've lost our way.
- abduhl 6y ago
  "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she with silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" America has never been about quality. Quality is a result of vigorous and excessive competition.
  - bontaq 6y ago
    It is sort of funny to say, "America has never been about quality," while referencing a poem about immigrants who moved here for a better quality of life. I think you've missed something rather obvious.

syshum 6y ago

I do, but I also do not use or consume content from Either Facebook or Twitter so....

rhino369 6y ago

Same as it always was. My Trump supporting uncle on facebook was just a Pat Buchnnan supporting uncle at a bar.