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People have gotten stupider because the world is too complex (and fundamentally impossible) to understand in a completely rational way. Historically we have rel

People have gotten stupider because the world is too complex (and fundamentally impossible) to understand in a completely rational way. Historically we have relied upon intuition, heuristics, and a network of trusted authority figures (usually a network of trusted institutions). The modern condition (post Enlightenment) can be understood as the elevation of rationality over all else and hostility towards heuristics and intuition. Heuristics and intuition come from listening to your grandmother and from sources like the Bible and old folktales. Furthermore the networks of trust and the institutions are completely and utterly corrupt, inhabited and headed by the worst (morally speaking) and dumbest people (intellectually speaking) in society. Think Harvard and The New York Times. The typical modern person (including the vast majority of people on HN) are almost completely hopeless when it comes to what we would traditionally define as "not being stupid" (aka "not being a sucker"). In your own life if you think of the stupidest people you know they tend to be the most "intelligent" (software engineers, PHDs, doctors, lawyers, etc). That's modernity.

ironmagma 6y ago
> [the world is fundamentally impossible] to understand in a completely rational way But it isn’t - rationality doesn’t mean knowing everything. We can be rational and also rely on heuristics; we only evolved those heuristics in the first place because they mostly work. So it’s perfectly reasonable to trust them in the absence of evidence.
- googthrowaway42 6y ago
  You can place the irrational in a rational frame of understanding, of course. But if you use a heuristic you are saying "I will use this shortcut even though I don't fully understand why it works".
  - ironmagma 6y ago
    Yes, but how is that irrational? It’s not using anything that’s contrary to rationality. It’s something that rationality fails to cover — you can’t find a rationale if you have no information to input into the system of rational thinking.
    - googthrowaway42 6y ago
      I'm using the term irrational to mean "not within the domain of the rational", not as a synonym for "stupid" or "folly".
      - username90 6y ago
        It is rational to not waste time and energy thinking about things that are unlikely to matter. Being rational doesn't mean that you always make the correct choices according to some artificial metrics, it means that you make the correct choices based on the information available to you and your goals. Intuition and folk tales is a part of the information available to you, so keeping them in mind is a part of being rational (although you shouldn't put too much weight on them either).
throwawaygh 6y ago
So your world view is that Harvard professors are eveil and stupid, NY Times reporters are evil and stupid, most modern people are stupid, software engineers are stupid, PhDs are stupid, doctors are stupid, lawyers are stupid, no one has taken advice from their grandmother since 1785, and no one reads the Bible anymore. Is it possible that becoming an MD might require a base level of mental capabilities and hard work? Is it possible that becoming a Harvard professor in their Math or CS department requires a big helping of skill, work, and luck? Is it possible that passing the Bar exam requires, if not a genius intellect, at least a base level of intellectual capability? Is it possible that all these people you disparage are actually just normal humans doing a pretty decent job at playing a small productive role in running society? More importantly: do you feel this way about the actual people that surround you -- your significant other, your in-laws, your old school friends, your coworkers, etc.? If so, please talk with a therapist (or your grandmother) about these feelings. This isn't meant in any way as an attack or belittlement. It's meant as genuine advice. Feeling like everyone around you is evil and stupid isn't healthy.
- googthrowaway42 6y ago
  You're speaking in very black and white terms, but yes in general that is my view and like all historical trends these things tend to decrease or increase in their effect over time. It's not a binary thing. Certainly I am saying that the number of people who read the Bible has decreased as a percentage of the population substantially since 1785. > Is it possible that becoming an MD might require a base level of mental capabilities and hard work? As an example of what I'm talking about, back in March/February all of the nurses and doctors I know were saying that Covid-19 was just the flu and that only medical professionals should wear a mask. I even reached out to one or two of them to try to give them more of a heads up. This was at the same time that videos were coming out of China with vast stadiums filled with sick people and where people were committing suicide rather than infect their family. Now all of those same medical professionals I know are saying that Covid-19 is extremely serious and that everyone should stay home when possible and wear a mask despite the fact that clearly the risk level is a lot lower now. Here where I live Covid-19 primarily attacks the GI like a typical stomach bug rather than as a serious respiratory illness. > Feeling like everyone around you is evil and stupid isn't healthy. Again you are imputing a black and white meaning to what I am saying when it was never said or implied. Certainly if one were living in Nazi Germany in the 1930s or the Soviet Union in the 1920s it would be reasonable for one to feel like generally speaking, "everyone around" was evil and/or stupid. Are things that bad here? Absolutely not however we are much closer to living in that kind of environment in the US than we were at the beginning of the 20th century. You have a very typical midwit view on this. I do genuinely feel bad for people that are so naive.
bena 6y ago
> In your own life if you think of the stupidest people you know they tend to be the most "intelligent" (software engineers, PHDs, doctors, lawyers, etc). That's modernity. I have not found that to be the case at all. In fact, I've often found the stupidest people I know tend to be the people who think "the stupidest people tend to be the most "intelligent"". It's means to discredit intelligence and expertise and replace them with shouting loudly.
- googthrowaway42 6y ago
  > It's means to discredit intelligence No > and expertise Yes > and replace them with shouting loudly No See: Nassim Taleb's IYI (Intellectual Yet Idiot)
  - bena 6y ago
    First, if you're going to use an initialism and the term, parenthesize the initialism, not the term, on the first occurrence. Next, I think you're way over-applying the concept of IYI. Also, the concept smells. If it's true, then why doesn't it apply to Taleb himself? And if it does, how can we trust the concept? He also tells you not to trust him. His life is basically giving advice. That's what his books are at their core level. Also, anyone who idolizes Ron Paul needs to be met with a certain level of skepticism. I don't think you should trust anyone who tells you to not trust expertise or intelligence. They're usually selling something they don't want you to think about. Finally, "No" and "Yes" aren't rebuttals, they're refusals to engage.

ironmagma 6y ago

> [the world is fundamentally impossible] to understand in a completely rational way But it isn’t - rationality doesn’t mean knowing everything. We can be rational and also rely on heuristics; we only evolved those heuristics in the first place because they mostly work. So it’s perfectly reasonable to trust them in the absence of evidence.

googthrowaway42 6y ago
You can place the irrational in a rational frame of understanding, of course. But if you use a heuristic you are saying "I will use this shortcut even though I don't fully understand why it works".
- ironmagma 6y ago
  Yes, but how is that irrational? It’s not using anything that’s contrary to rationality. It’s something that rationality fails to cover — you can’t find a rationale if you have no information to input into the system of rational thinking.
  - googthrowaway42 6y ago
    I'm using the term irrational to mean "not within the domain of the rational", not as a synonym for "stupid" or "folly".
    - username90 6y ago
      It is rational to not waste time and energy thinking about things that are unlikely to matter. Being rational doesn't mean that you always make the correct choices according to some artificial metrics, it means that you make the correct choices based on the information available to you and your goals. Intuition and folk tales is a part of the information available to you, so keeping them in mind is a part of being rational (although you shouldn't put too much weight on them either).

throwawaygh 6y ago

So your world view is that Harvard professors are eveil and stupid, NY Times reporters are evil and stupid, most modern people are stupid, software engineers are stupid, PhDs are stupid, doctors are stupid, lawyers are stupid, no one has taken advice from their grandmother since 1785, and no one reads the Bible anymore. Is it possible that becoming an MD might require a base level of mental capabilities and hard work? Is it possible that becoming a Harvard professor in their Math or CS department requires a big helping of skill, work, and luck? Is it possible that passing the Bar exam requires, if not a genius intellect, at least a base level of intellectual capability? Is it possible that all these people you disparage are actually just normal humans doing a pretty decent job at playing a small productive role in running society? More importantly: do you feel this way about the actual people that surround you -- your significant other, your in-laws, your old school friends, your coworkers, etc.? If so, please talk with a therapist (or your grandmother) about these feelings. This isn't meant in any way as an attack or belittlement. It's meant as genuine advice. Feeling like everyone around you is evil and stupid isn't healthy.

googthrowaway42 6y ago
You're speaking in very black and white terms, but yes in general that is my view and like all historical trends these things tend to decrease or increase in their effect over time. It's not a binary thing. Certainly I am saying that the number of people who read the Bible has decreased as a percentage of the population substantially since 1785. > Is it possible that becoming an MD might require a base level of mental capabilities and hard work? As an example of what I'm talking about, back in March/February all of the nurses and doctors I know were saying that Covid-19 was just the flu and that only medical professionals should wear a mask. I even reached out to one or two of them to try to give them more of a heads up. This was at the same time that videos were coming out of China with vast stadiums filled with sick people and where people were committing suicide rather than infect their family. Now all of those same medical professionals I know are saying that Covid-19 is extremely serious and that everyone should stay home when possible and wear a mask despite the fact that clearly the risk level is a lot lower now. Here where I live Covid-19 primarily attacks the GI like a typical stomach bug rather than as a serious respiratory illness. > Feeling like everyone around you is evil and stupid isn't healthy. Again you are imputing a black and white meaning to what I am saying when it was never said or implied. Certainly if one were living in Nazi Germany in the 1930s or the Soviet Union in the 1920s it would be reasonable for one to feel like generally speaking, "everyone around" was evil and/or stupid. Are things that bad here? Absolutely not however we are much closer to living in that kind of environment in the US than we were at the beginning of the 20th century. You have a very typical midwit view on this. I do genuinely feel bad for people that are so naive.

bena 6y ago

> In your own life if you think of the stupidest people you know they tend to be the most "intelligent" (software engineers, PHDs, doctors, lawyers, etc). That's modernity. I have not found that to be the case at all. In fact, I've often found the stupidest people I know tend to be the people who think "the stupidest people tend to be the most "intelligent"". It's means to discredit intelligence and expertise and replace them with shouting loudly.

googthrowaway42 6y ago
> It's means to discredit intelligence No > and expertise Yes > and replace them with shouting loudly No See: Nassim Taleb's IYI (Intellectual Yet Idiot)
- bena 6y ago
  First, if you're going to use an initialism and the term, parenthesize the initialism, not the term, on the first occurrence. Next, I think you're way over-applying the concept of IYI. Also, the concept smells. If it's true, then why doesn't it apply to Taleb himself? And if it does, how can we trust the concept? He also tells you not to trust him. His life is basically giving advice. That's what his books are at their core level. Also, anyone who idolizes Ron Paul needs to be met with a certain level of skepticism. I don't think you should trust anyone who tells you to not trust expertise or intelligence. They're usually selling something they don't want you to think about. Finally, "No" and "Yes" aren't rebuttals, they're refusals to engage.