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> There is a widely held belief that because math is involved, algorithms are automatically neutral. Is there?

by dwighttk 6y ago

andrew_ 6y ago
It's possible. I could see that being true with folks who aren't tech savvy and/or have never written an algorithm.
- clairity 6y ago
  people who are tech savvy and write the algorithms often believe in algorithmic neutrality too.
rcthompson 6y ago
When you put your destination into your phone and press "navigate", do you stop each time to check (or even just wonder) whether the route it gives you is biased in some way? Or do you just trust it to get you to your destination by the optimal route?
- drdeca 6y ago
  I think the important thing in that case is that I can trust it to get me there better than I could get me there. I mean, yea, I do expect it to do some optimization, in that I expect it to use some path finding algorithm with some collection of weights on the different paths, or something like that, and for the instance of the path finding problem that it produces I expect the route to be optimal, but that the problem it produces may differ in some ways from the true most correct problem to solve, but, in the end, the solution it gives me is better than the one I would produce, so, why do I care if it isn't quite optimal under the literally perfect criteria? (I mean, if another alternative gave better results that would be better, of course. I just mean that what it is isn't bad.) I don't think navigation is the best example for this topic though. Navigation seems like a fairly solid/well-defined problem, not like more of the more fuzzy questions, like "does this picture include a face?" .
  - rcthompson 6y ago
    I chose navigation as my example because there have been real-world instances of "mathwashing" in this field.
    - drdeca 6y ago
      Ok, I didn’t know that. Maybe it is a better example than I thought. I don’t know what examples you are referring to.
- dwighttk 6y ago
  I rarely use driving directions from an algorithm, but when I do I always assume they are biased. Sometimes I ask them to be biased in a certain way, like stay away from tolls.
abdullahkhalids 6y ago
There are three possible beliefs or how people operate in their daily lives (among others). 1. You believe algorithms are biased and must be analyzed for neutrality. 2. You believe algorithms are neutral and there is no need to question them. 3. You don't have the time or the aptitude to pay attention to the algorithms that run our lives. [in effect, you behave like algorithms are neutral] I think OP's claim is closer to 3 than 2.

> There is a widely held belief that because math is involved, algorithms are automatically neutral. Is there?

andrew_ 6y ago

It's possible. I could see that being true with folks who aren't tech savvy and/or have never written an algorithm.

clairity 6y ago
people who are tech savvy and write the algorithms often believe in algorithmic neutrality too.

rcthompson 6y ago

When you put your destination into your phone and press "navigate", do you stop each time to check (or even just wonder) whether the route it gives you is biased in some way? Or do you just trust it to get you to your destination by the optimal route?

drdeca 6y ago
I think the important thing in that case is that I can trust it to get me there better than I could get me there. I mean, yea, I do expect it to do some optimization, in that I expect it to use some path finding algorithm with some collection of weights on the different paths, or something like that, and for the instance of the path finding problem that it produces I expect the route to be optimal, but that the problem it produces may differ in some ways from the true most correct problem to solve, but, in the end, the solution it gives me is better than the one I would produce, so, why do I care if it isn't quite optimal under the literally perfect criteria? (I mean, if another alternative gave better results that would be better, of course. I just mean that what it is isn't bad.) I don't think navigation is the best example for this topic though. Navigation seems like a fairly solid/well-defined problem, not like more of the more fuzzy questions, like "does this picture include a face?" .
- rcthompson 6y ago
  I chose navigation as my example because there have been real-world instances of "mathwashing" in this field.
  - drdeca 6y ago
    Ok, I didn’t know that. Maybe it is a better example than I thought. I don’t know what examples you are referring to.
dwighttk 6y ago
I rarely use driving directions from an algorithm, but when I do I always assume they are biased. Sometimes I ask them to be biased in a certain way, like stay away from tolls.

abdullahkhalids 6y ago

There are three possible beliefs or how people operate in their daily lives (among others). 1. You believe algorithms are biased and must be analyzed for neutrality. 2. You believe algorithms are neutral and there is no need to question them. 3. You don't have the time or the aptitude to pay attention to the algorithms that run our lives. [in effect, you behave like algorithms are neutral] I think OP's claim is closer to 3 than 2.