3 ms·

I've been writing about this a lot lately. Intellectuals tend to be VERY dismissive of critically looking at charisma and persuasion as tools. They're convinc

by bgroat 6y ago

I've been writing about this a lot lately. Intellectuals tend to be VERY dismissive of critically looking at charisma and persuasion as tools. They're convinced that since they're ideas are SO GOOD they should will just be accepted upon stating facts. Besides, only manipulators and cult leaders try to be charismatic and persuasive. But I argue that "If only bad people study charismatic persuasion, then only bad people will be charismatically persuasive"

borroka 6y ago
The harsh reality of life, for the many who tend to be too deep in their thoughts, is that if intellectuals spent more time on their looks (which, when they are good, are per se charismatic and persuasive), their "so good" ideas will have many more chances to appear "so good" to also those hearing and reading those ideas. Along the same lines, those who are leading the effort in making Science more popular and attract, for example, underrepresented minorities, should focus on making more visible scientists who are good looking, charismatic, and therefore persuasive. It sounds manipulative, especially to the eyes of intellectuals, but it'd work.
- rwnspace 6y ago
  But this comes full circle - the more privileged are more likely to be more charismatic. In the UK, the art of rhetoric doesn't appear in the standard curriculum. I am confident in my ability to predict whether a UK politician has been to private/grammar schools and Oxbridge or not - to distinguish those who have been taught elocution and rubbed shoulders with the rich and powerful from an early age. Not only that, but confidence and certainty are very charismatic, or at least, draw attention. That works fine as a mechanism for liberating people from concerning themselves with the minutiae of every part of life in society. But we all know some variation of that quote about the certain fools and uncertain wise. I'm thinking of those especially confident scientists who have used their platform to trash reflective subjects like Philosophy (not naming any names). I suppose a good summary of my point is that charisma can transform interest into idolatry.
Taylor_OD 6y ago
Most of the mediocrely talented but very successful people I know get by with high charisma. Or putting in many more hours than others. I don't know which one is easier to maintain over the course of a career.
- jasonv 6y ago
  I'm close to some very-charismatic people, in music and business... and if they falter in life, the charisma habit can definitely be a trap. They keep charisma-ing hard, but the reality of their circumstances are hard to square with their immediate effect on people. But real outcomes are often the result of longer term efforts and circumstances. And later in life, the "luck" factor seems harder to capitalize on.. I was once denied an opportunity by a Hollywood finance guy because, as he said, "You're not that smooth.." He was smooth, but not exactly charismatic. Possibly another side of a related coin.
- randycupertino 6y ago
  > Most of the mediocrely talented but very successful people I know get by with high charisma. Or putting in many more hours than others. I think I do both! I'm extremely charismatic but imo not that bright so coast on personality but sometimes fall back on working lots of hours. My charisma story is that I was very naturally attractive but then had an accident and gained a large % of bodyweight while bedridden for over six months. When I came back into the real world I sort of got forced to improve my personality because I could no longer coast on looks!
  - Taylor_OD 6y ago
    Going bald pretty much did the same for me haha. It's very interesting, and disturbing, how differently people treat traditionally attractive people and unattractive/less people.
    - randycupertino 6y ago
      > It's very interesting, and disturbing, how differently people treat traditionally attractive people and unattractive/less people. Yes! I had a group at work of a core team. One guy who, in retrospect held me by the hand and led me along stupidvising as I learned a new system. He gave me endless attention and tutoring, celebrated wins and helped redirect when I messed up without ever getting upset. When I came back to work after having gained, he was weird and cold and blunt, and was way more demanding and curt in his feedback. What really opened my eyes was when I lost again, suddenly I had my patient and thoughtful "mentor" back. It was disheartening, to be honest... just a feeling of sadness for humanity on how many opportunities the unattractive don't have offered to them on silver platters.
082349872349872 6y ago
on the rhetorical value of appeals to reason: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24697600 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24697600
epylar 6y ago
I used to believe in raw merit/good ideas. I still believe they're good, but not that they're particularly effective in dealing with most people.

by bgroat 6y ago

borroka 6y ago

The harsh reality of life, for the many who tend to be too deep in their thoughts, is that if intellectuals spent more time on their looks (which, when they are good, are per se charismatic and persuasive), their "so good" ideas will have many more chances to appear "so good" to also those hearing and reading those ideas. Along the same lines, those who are leading the effort in making Science more popular and attract, for example, underrepresented minorities, should focus on making more visible scientists who are good looking, charismatic, and therefore persuasive. It sounds manipulative, especially to the eyes of intellectuals, but it'd work.

rwnspace 6y ago
But this comes full circle - the more privileged are more likely to be more charismatic. In the UK, the art of rhetoric doesn't appear in the standard curriculum. I am confident in my ability to predict whether a UK politician has been to private/grammar schools and Oxbridge or not - to distinguish those who have been taught elocution and rubbed shoulders with the rich and powerful from an early age. Not only that, but confidence and certainty are very charismatic, or at least, draw attention. That works fine as a mechanism for liberating people from concerning themselves with the minutiae of every part of life in society. But we all know some variation of that quote about the certain fools and uncertain wise. I'm thinking of those especially confident scientists who have used their platform to trash reflective subjects like Philosophy (not naming any names). I suppose a good summary of my point is that charisma can transform interest into idolatry.

Taylor_OD 6y ago

Most of the mediocrely talented but very successful people I know get by with high charisma. Or putting in many more hours than others. I don't know which one is easier to maintain over the course of a career.

jasonv 6y ago
I'm close to some very-charismatic people, in music and business... and if they falter in life, the charisma habit can definitely be a trap. They keep charisma-ing hard, but the reality of their circumstances are hard to square with their immediate effect on people. But real outcomes are often the result of longer term efforts and circumstances. And later in life, the "luck" factor seems harder to capitalize on.. I was once denied an opportunity by a Hollywood finance guy because, as he said, "You're not that smooth.." He was smooth, but not exactly charismatic. Possibly another side of a related coin.
randycupertino 6y ago
> Most of the mediocrely talented but very successful people I know get by with high charisma. Or putting in many more hours than others. I think I do both! I'm extremely charismatic but imo not that bright so coast on personality but sometimes fall back on working lots of hours. My charisma story is that I was very naturally attractive but then had an accident and gained a large % of bodyweight while bedridden for over six months. When I came back into the real world I sort of got forced to improve my personality because I could no longer coast on looks!
- Taylor_OD 6y ago
  Going bald pretty much did the same for me haha. It's very interesting, and disturbing, how differently people treat traditionally attractive people and unattractive/less people.
  - randycupertino 6y ago
    > It's very interesting, and disturbing, how differently people treat traditionally attractive people and unattractive/less people. Yes! I had a group at work of a core team. One guy who, in retrospect held me by the hand and led me along stupidvising as I learned a new system. He gave me endless attention and tutoring, celebrated wins and helped redirect when I messed up without ever getting upset. When I came back to work after having gained, he was weird and cold and blunt, and was way more demanding and curt in his feedback. What really opened my eyes was when I lost again, suddenly I had my patient and thoughtful "mentor" back. It was disheartening, to be honest... just a feeling of sadness for humanity on how many opportunities the unattractive don't have offered to them on silver platters.

082349872349872 6y ago

on the rhetorical value of appeals to reason: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24697600 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24697600

epylar 6y ago

I used to believe in raw merit/good ideas. I still believe they're good, but not that they're particularly effective in dealing with most people.