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Sorry maybe I didn't express it correctly but my thoughts were that nobody believes the right to make sounds from our lungs or put words on a page are fundament

by spuz 6y ago

Sorry maybe I didn't express it correctly but my thoughts were that nobody believes the right to make sounds from our lungs or put words on a page are fundamental - what is more important to us is that our views and opinions are heard by others and that no authority can choose for us what we hear. Living in this way gives us more freedom to choose how we live and allows us to decide who to be influenced by. Now take the example of promotion of terrorism - it's possible to argue that by allowing someone to post certain types of messages to a group on Facebook, they are creating an undue influence on the people in that group. For example by asking his followers to reject the views of outsiders (a common tactic in many religions, cults and conspiracy groups) a terrorist could be argued to have taken the freedom to hear other viewpoints away from his followers. Now you can of course say that any terrorist or religious or cult leader is acting within a system of free speech - no one has technically had their freedom taken from them. That is true, but the reality of how humans choose who and what they listen to create the same effect as if they had lost those faculties.

nickff 6y ago
You're now arguing that you also have a right to be heard? That's quite a right! I am not sure how you would define your 'undue influence' test, as it seems internally inconsistent: >"For example by asking his followers to reject the views of outsiders (a common tactic in many religions, cults and conspiracy groups) a terrorist could be argued to have taken the freedom to hear other viewpoints away from his followers." Do you see the inconsistency here? You are looking to forcibly silence one group, so they can listen to 'outsiders'. From the other side, it would look like you're the one advocating in favor of an even more extreme 'undue influence'.
- spuz 6y ago
  > Do you see the inconsistency here?... From the other side, it would look like you're the one advocating in favor of an even more extreme 'undue influence'. I can see why you think there is an inconsistency here but I don't think there is. Most people would say that the right to free speech includes two parts. Firstly we have the right to say what we want, to express those ideas to others and to be able to reach others without being censored. Secondly we have the right to hear the ideas of others without them being censored by the government. The first part of this right allows us to change and hopefully improve the world around us. The second part of this right allows us to use the best information available in order to lead the best life that we can. Free speech is the best tool that we know of to achieve these outcomes but it is still simply a means to an end. When I give the example of a terrorist leader influencing his followers, I am trying to give an example of someone who uses the first part of the freedom of speech to improve the world around him (in his opinion) but who takes away the second part of the freedom of speech from his followers. That of course depends strongly on whether or not those followers would be able to lead better lives outside of his influence. It's a very fair argument to make that we as a society cannot know for certain whose ideas are right or wrong and therefore there is no kind of censorship of ideas can be justified. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter etc. As another example, imagine a scientist who is interested in the genetic differences between races. He may decide based on years of research to conclude that one race has a genetic advantage over another and present the evidence that formed his conclusion. However, being a scientist, he would be open to different interpretations of that evidence and accept new evidence that may alter his conclusion. Alternatively a racist keen to promote his race as superior to others may present the same conclusion, but present it in a way that discourages critical thinking or alternative interpretations. He may encourage those who listen to reject the views of others as biased. His followers would become closed to the new evidence. This doctrine could be considered a violation of his follower's free speech right to use the best information available in order to improve their lives. As with other freedoms we often decide to restrict them as soon as they limit the freedoms of those around us - for example, you are perfectly free to sing loudly in your own house during the day, but as soon as you start to disrupt the sleep of your neighbours when you practice your songs at 3am then you should have that freedom limited. In the same way, it could be argued that we should allow people the freedom of speech only in so far as it doesn't limit the freedom of others to benefit from that same freedom. In a world where people can be deceived or oppressed purely by speech alone, you have to consider when and how it should be limited. In an absolutely ideal world, we would make no topic of speech off limits - we would simply rely on people's education and critical thinking abilities to allow them to make the correct choices. However, in the real world, many individuals such as children cannot be trusted to think critically, or not to be deceived by misinformation. To bring this back to the original query - what are your thoughts on the UK and German government approaches to free speech - my view is that our governments have absolutely no way to control how ideas are presented - they cannot ensure that ideas such as differences between races are considered in purely scientific context. They cannot control how someone may use that information to cause harm. Their ultimate goal is to prevent people from being harmed by these bad ideas but since they have no ability to control how someone presents their ideas, they fall back to censoring the ideas themselves. That is not to say I necessarily agree with this policy - but if you consider how simply limiting certain ideas can increase the freedom of those who might hear them, it's possible to see some kind of justification.
  - nickff 6y ago
    I think that trying to develop your own ethical/moral reasoning on a subject this complex is quite haphazard; you seem to be trying to carve-out/describe a nuanced position, but there are a lot of problems with your reasoning. To be clear, this is a tough subject, and I am not trying to impugn your motives in any way. My view is that government authority is at its perigee when it comes to free speech, and that any regulation is both problematic and suspect. This stems from Huemer's convincing arguments in "The Problem of Political Authority".

by spuz 6y ago

nickff 6y ago

You're now arguing that you also have a right to be heard? That's quite a right! I am not sure how you would define your 'undue influence' test, as it seems internally inconsistent: >"For example by asking his followers to reject the views of outsiders (a common tactic in many religions, cults and conspiracy groups) a terrorist could be argued to have taken the freedom to hear other viewpoints away from his followers." Do you see the inconsistency here? You are looking to forcibly silence one group, so they can listen to 'outsiders'. From the other side, it would look like you're the one advocating in favor of an even more extreme 'undue influence'.

spuz 6y ago
> Do you see the inconsistency here?... From the other side, it would look like you're the one advocating in favor of an even more extreme 'undue influence'. I can see why you think there is an inconsistency here but I don't think there is. Most people would say that the right to free speech includes two parts. Firstly we have the right to say what we want, to express those ideas to others and to be able to reach others without being censored. Secondly we have the right to hear the ideas of others without them being censored by the government. The first part of this right allows us to change and hopefully improve the world around us. The second part of this right allows us to use the best information available in order to lead the best life that we can. Free speech is the best tool that we know of to achieve these outcomes but it is still simply a means to an end. When I give the example of a terrorist leader influencing his followers, I am trying to give an example of someone who uses the first part of the freedom of speech to improve the world around him (in his opinion) but who takes away the second part of the freedom of speech from his followers. That of course depends strongly on whether or not those followers would be able to lead better lives outside of his influence. It's a very fair argument to make that we as a society cannot know for certain whose ideas are right or wrong and therefore there is no kind of censorship of ideas can be justified. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter etc. As another example, imagine a scientist who is interested in the genetic differences between races. He may decide based on years of research to conclude that one race has a genetic advantage over another and present the evidence that formed his conclusion. However, being a scientist, he would be open to different interpretations of that evidence and accept new evidence that may alter his conclusion. Alternatively a racist keen to promote his race as superior to others may present the same conclusion, but present it in a way that discourages critical thinking or alternative interpretations. He may encourage those who listen to reject the views of others as biased. His followers would become closed to the new evidence. This doctrine could be considered a violation of his follower's free speech right to use the best information available in order to improve their lives. As with other freedoms we often decide to restrict them as soon as they limit the freedoms of those around us - for example, you are perfectly free to sing loudly in your own house during the day, but as soon as you start to disrupt the sleep of your neighbours when you practice your songs at 3am then you should have that freedom limited. In the same way, it could be argued that we should allow people the freedom of speech only in so far as it doesn't limit the freedom of others to benefit from that same freedom. In a world where people can be deceived or oppressed purely by speech alone, you have to consider when and how it should be limited. In an absolutely ideal world, we would make no topic of speech off limits - we would simply rely on people's education and critical thinking abilities to allow them to make the correct choices. However, in the real world, many individuals such as children cannot be trusted to think critically, or not to be deceived by misinformation. To bring this back to the original query - what are your thoughts on the UK and German government approaches to free speech - my view is that our governments have absolutely no way to control how ideas are presented - they cannot ensure that ideas such as differences between races are considered in purely scientific context. They cannot control how someone may use that information to cause harm. Their ultimate goal is to prevent people from being harmed by these bad ideas but since they have no ability to control how someone presents their ideas, they fall back to censoring the ideas themselves. That is not to say I necessarily agree with this policy - but if you consider how simply limiting certain ideas can increase the freedom of those who might hear them, it's possible to see some kind of justification.
- nickff 6y ago
  I think that trying to develop your own ethical/moral reasoning on a subject this complex is quite haphazard; you seem to be trying to carve-out/describe a nuanced position, but there are a lot of problems with your reasoning. To be clear, this is a tough subject, and I am not trying to impugn your motives in any way. My view is that government authority is at its perigee when it comes to free speech, and that any regulation is both problematic and suspect. This stems from Huemer's convincing arguments in "The Problem of Political Authority".