4 ms·

Oh.... and if you are sure that your product has flaws that might cause people to get killed, or cause medical information to be inappropriately leaked, etc., t

by tytso 6y ago

Oh.... and if you are sure that your product has flaws that might cause people to get killed, or cause medical information to be inappropriately leaked, etc., the proper path is to schedule a meeting with your team lead and the product counsel on the issue. Not only did I have to certify that I received this kind of training every year at every large corporation that I've worked at (and yes, this includes Google), this was also covered in my MIT Sloan School class, "Legal issues for I/T Managers" that I took as continuing education when I worked in MIT Network Operations and served as Tech Lead for Kerberos V5 development. I'm really surprised at the comments in Hacker News on this article. Doesn't everyone get this fundamental, basic legal training? IMHO every single practicing engineer should!

Nullabillity 6y ago
> Not only did I have to certify that I received this kind of training every year at every large corporation that I've worked at (and yes, this includes Google), this was also covered in my MIT Sloan School class, "Legal issues for I/T Managers" that I took as continuing education when I worked in MIT Network Operations and served as Tech Lead for Kerberos V5 development. Welp, that says a lot about MIT's ethics education.
- julienb_sea 6y ago
  The right way to handle an engineering problem with ethical implications is to handle it carefully, internally and via the appropriate channels. It is wholly inappropriate to make something public that very likely can be handled appropriately without the public fallout. I would call it unethical to your coworkers to create unnecessary damage to your team or your company by ignoring the appropriate process for handling sensitive internal issues. If things are being shoved under the rug by management, that is an entirely different issue.
  - Nullabillity 6y ago
    > I would call it unethical to your coworkers to create unnecessary damage to your team or your company by ignoring the appropriate process for handling sensitive internal issues. That argument would call it unethical for a robber to tip off the police about their gang's upcoming heist. > If things are being shoved under the rug by management, that is an entirely different issue. If those processes were known to be effective then they would be sold based on that, not on how they keep you out of trouble.
    - oh_sigh 6y ago
      Heists are definitionally illegal. That isn't the kind of behavior that is being considered here.
      - shard972 6y ago
        I would have thought operating in violation of anti trust laws would also be illegal? At some point a large enough ethical issue can easily become a legal issue.
michaelt 6y ago
Taking your example, that you are sure that your product has flaws that might cause people to get killed - and assuming you're not mistaken, as your example didn't say that: There's a big difference between "You should immediately tell your manager and legal" and "You should not tell anyone in the company other than that, state the facts plainly in clear terms, or leave a paper trail" The former is your ethical obligation to keep people alive - but the latter is mandating employees to always participate in cover-ups, which is obviously unethical.

by tytso 6y ago

Nullabillity 6y ago

> Not only did I have to certify that I received this kind of training every year at every large corporation that I've worked at (and yes, this includes Google), this was also covered in my MIT Sloan School class, "Legal issues for I/T Managers" that I took as continuing education when I worked in MIT Network Operations and served as Tech Lead for Kerberos V5 development. Welp, that says a lot about MIT's ethics education.

julienb_sea 6y ago
The right way to handle an engineering problem with ethical implications is to handle it carefully, internally and via the appropriate channels. It is wholly inappropriate to make something public that very likely can be handled appropriately without the public fallout. I would call it unethical to your coworkers to create unnecessary damage to your team or your company by ignoring the appropriate process for handling sensitive internal issues. If things are being shoved under the rug by management, that is an entirely different issue.
- Nullabillity 6y ago
  > I would call it unethical to your coworkers to create unnecessary damage to your team or your company by ignoring the appropriate process for handling sensitive internal issues. That argument would call it unethical for a robber to tip off the police about their gang's upcoming heist. > If things are being shoved under the rug by management, that is an entirely different issue. If those processes were known to be effective then they would be sold based on that, not on how they keep you out of trouble.
  - oh_sigh 6y ago
    Heists are definitionally illegal. That isn't the kind of behavior that is being considered here.
    - shard972 6y ago
      I would have thought operating in violation of anti trust laws would also be illegal? At some point a large enough ethical issue can easily become a legal issue.

michaelt 6y ago

Taking your example, that you are sure that your product has flaws that might cause people to get killed - and assuming you're not mistaken, as your example didn't say that: There's a big difference between "You should immediately tell your manager and legal" and "You should not tell anyone in the company other than that, state the facts plainly in clear terms, or leave a paper trail" The former is your ethical obligation to keep people alive - but the latter is mandating employees to always participate in cover-ups, which is obviously unethical.