4 ms·

>This is the point of standards Except apple doesn't use standards. They use their own proprietary ports.

by soperj 6y ago

mmm_grayons 6y ago
In fairness to Apple, they didn't just make other ports for the sake of it. When lightning mini was made, it was objectively better than mini-USB. When magsafe was made, it was objectively better than barrel plugs (and for charging, it's still better than USB-C.) Now that the standards are better, Apple is slowly transitioning to USB-C, which is a standard.
- samatman 6y ago
  If by "slowly transitioning" you mean "massively and publicly driving adoption of USB-C", then yes, I agree. Apple has been pushing for the interoperable USB standard for as long as it has existed. The original iPhone was either the first phone to charge from USB, or at minimum the first successful mass-market phone to do so.
  - sagarm 6y ago
    Apple definitely did not lead on USB-C. Premium Android and Windows laptops standardized on USB-C long before.
    - samatman 6y ago
      The Apple MacBook was March of 2015. The Galaxy Note 5, released in August of 2015, used a MicroUSB port. I think we'd both agree that is a premium Android device, and clearly, "standardized on" USB-C did not happen "long before". In fact, Android only introduced support for USB-C in 6.0, officially released in October 2015: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C#Software_support https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C#Software_support So I'm quite sure your memory is faulty, on that one. Given that the specification for USB-C was only finalized in August of 2014, I'm confident your statement about Windows laptops is equally off base.
    - kalleboo 6y ago
      Have windows laptops even standardized on USB-C now? I still see a lot of Windows laptops that come with barrel plug charging and all the legacy ports, and then have a sole USB-C port that you can also use for charging if you buy a separate charger
      - firebird84 6y ago
        The problem is if they have the space for a USB-A plug, realize that tons of NEW consumer devices still use that! Apple can convince its customer base to buy dongles, but will all Windows PC users be happy with that?
- edhelas 6y ago
  To the point that you can easily find a USB-C port on all their iPhone, iPad and other devices yes ! Wait...
  - mmm_grayons 6y ago
    You can find usbc ports exclusively on newer macbooks and ipads, which is pretty significant, and they also come on the desktop macs. I'm guessing it will appear in iphones at some point; I believe Apple was considering a switch for the latest iphones but backed out in May. It's reasonably likelt that the next models will drop the lightning mini.
- chipotle_coyote 6y ago
  I remember making the observation a few years back that when the MacBooks went USB-C, they marked the first time that, as far as I know, Apple ever shipped a machine that had no proprietary ports on it... and it was so ironic that people (including, I'd note, on HN) were really angry about it. I still get into arguments with people insisting that it was all just a plot for Apple to force you to buy dongles.
  - Shared404 6y ago
    THe thing is, I appreciate the fact that they are pushing USB-C, it's a thing that needs to happen, and the sooner the better. However, how am I supposed to use a laptop with _two ports_, one of which will be consumed any time I am charging. I go over that on my laptop all the time.
ballenf 6y ago
That's increasingly not true with the single exception of the iPhone (and even it now uses USB-C for the adapter and Qi for the wireless charge protocol). Every other new device (iPads, laptop and desktop) is 100% USB-C. And, again, you don't even strictly need a lightning cable for your iPhone for most scenarios (airport charging type scenarios used to be the big exception in olden times). Some reviewers are guessing that iPhones will drop the wired charge port entirely at some point, so will become a moot point. And as for squeezing customers, switching away from the Lightning port would "squeeze" quite a few iPhone customers with lightning cables and docks and such strewn around their house. I just wish Apple had included a puck-type Qi charger and cable in the box. Could have kept the box pretty slim.
gumby 6y ago
> Except apple doesn't use standards. They use their own proprietary ports. Actually Apple is pretty standards compliant, sometimes excessively so. I have no illusion that they are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts, but the idea that they "don't use standards" is a canard. For video they long used open standards (DVI, Displayport, HDMI, now standard DisplayPort over Type C); they were one of the first to adoptt USB (much to the gnashing of teeth on the part of previous apple owners), the iPod originally used firewire; and lightning when it came out was the only insert-either-way connector (apple was on the USB board that designed Type C, but lightning predates type C) and now they use Type C (much to the gnashing of teeth of various parties). Their wireless chargers are Qi compatible, though their devices aren't :-(. Their USB implementations long required quite compliant devices rather than windows' "just install a flaky driver" leading to "hey this USB thingie doesn't work on Apple". I had hoped this year they'd ditch lightning for type C on at least the high end phones but no luck. On the software side, especially when they were the underdog they were quite standards compliant (image, music, video files, PDF, RTF etc) and are responsible for removing DRM from their music store. They didn't roll out their own formats until they were in a stronger position but have retained support for most of these old formats.
- vlan0 6y ago
  I think you may have overlooked the other side of those cables in your examples. While one side of the cable was FireWire or USB, the interface on the device was propriety. And that was true for over a decade worth of iPods, iPhones, and iPads.
  - musicale 6y ago
    > While one side of the cable was FireWire or USB, the interface on the device was propriety The original iPod was FireWire-only. The 30-pin dock connector was developed to enable USB and FireWire connectivity as well as docking.
  - gumby 6y ago
    I still have an original iPad and it had a big FireWire connector on it. It was FW on both ends. They rapidly switched to USB (w/30 pin at other end) in order to open up the PC market to the* iPod. * I refuse to follow Apples pretentious (proprietary?) refusal to use the article “the” with the iPod and the iPhone.

>This is the point of standards Except apple doesn't use standards. They use their own proprietary ports.

by soperj 6y ago

>This is the point of standards Except apple doesn't use standards. They use their own proprietary ports.

In fairness to Apple, they didn't just make other ports for the sake of it. When lightning mini was made, it was objectively better than mini-USB. When magsafe was made, it was objectively better than barrel plugs (and for charging, it's still better than USB-C.) Now that the standards are better, Apple is slowly transitioning to USB-C, which is a standard.

samatman 6y ago
If by "slowly transitioning" you mean "massively and publicly driving adoption of USB-C", then yes, I agree. Apple has been pushing for the interoperable USB standard for as long as it has existed. The original iPhone was either the first phone to charge from USB, or at minimum the first successful mass-market phone to do so.
- sagarm 6y ago
  Apple definitely did not lead on USB-C. Premium Android and Windows laptops standardized on USB-C long before.
  - samatman 6y ago
    The Apple MacBook was March of 2015. The Galaxy Note 5, released in August of 2015, used a MicroUSB port. I think we'd both agree that is a premium Android device, and clearly, "standardized on" USB-C did not happen "long before". In fact, Android only introduced support for USB-C in 6.0, officially released in October 2015: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C#Software_support https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C#Software_support So I'm quite sure your memory is faulty, on that one. Given that the specification for USB-C was only finalized in August of 2014, I'm confident your statement about Windows laptops is equally off base.
  - kalleboo 6y ago
    Have windows laptops even standardized on USB-C now? I still see a lot of Windows laptops that come with barrel plug charging and all the legacy ports, and then have a sole USB-C port that you can also use for charging if you buy a separate charger
    - firebird84 6y ago
      The problem is if they have the space for a USB-A plug, realize that tons of NEW consumer devices still use that! Apple can convince its customer base to buy dongles, but will all Windows PC users be happy with that?
edhelas 6y ago
To the point that you can easily find a USB-C port on all their iPhone, iPad and other devices yes ! Wait...
- mmm_grayons 6y ago
  You can find usbc ports exclusively on newer macbooks and ipads, which is pretty significant, and they also come on the desktop macs. I'm guessing it will appear in iphones at some point; I believe Apple was considering a switch for the latest iphones but backed out in May. It's reasonably likelt that the next models will drop the lightning mini.
chipotle_coyote 6y ago
I remember making the observation a few years back that when the MacBooks went USB-C, they marked the first time that, as far as I know, Apple ever shipped a machine that had no proprietary ports on it... and it was so ironic that people (including, I'd note, on HN) were really angry about it. I still get into arguments with people insisting that it was all just a plot for Apple to force you to buy dongles.
- Shared404 6y ago
  THe thing is, I appreciate the fact that they are pushing USB-C, it's a thing that needs to happen, and the sooner the better. However, how am I supposed to use a laptop with _two ports_, one of which will be consumed any time I am charging. I go over that on my laptop all the time.

ballenf 6y ago

That's increasingly not true with the single exception of the iPhone (and even it now uses USB-C for the adapter and Qi for the wireless charge protocol). Every other new device (iPads, laptop and desktop) is 100% USB-C. And, again, you don't even strictly need a lightning cable for your iPhone for most scenarios (airport charging type scenarios used to be the big exception in olden times). Some reviewers are guessing that iPhones will drop the wired charge port entirely at some point, so will become a moot point. And as for squeezing customers, switching away from the Lightning port would "squeeze" quite a few iPhone customers with lightning cables and docks and such strewn around their house. I just wish Apple had included a puck-type Qi charger and cable in the box. Could have kept the box pretty slim.

gumby 6y ago

> Except apple doesn't use standards. They use their own proprietary ports. Actually Apple is pretty standards compliant, sometimes excessively so. I have no illusion that they are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts, but the idea that they "don't use standards" is a canard. For video they long used open standards (DVI, Displayport, HDMI, now standard DisplayPort over Type C); they were one of the first to adoptt USB (much to the gnashing of teeth on the part of previous apple owners), the iPod originally used firewire; and lightning when it came out was the only insert-either-way connector (apple was on the USB board that designed Type C, but lightning predates type C) and now they use Type C (much to the gnashing of teeth of various parties). Their wireless chargers are Qi compatible, though their devices aren't :-(. Their USB implementations long required quite compliant devices rather than windows' "just install a flaky driver" leading to "hey this USB thingie doesn't work on Apple". I had hoped this year they'd ditch lightning for type C on at least the high end phones but no luck. On the software side, especially when they were the underdog they were quite standards compliant (image, music, video files, PDF, RTF etc) and are responsible for removing DRM from their music store. They didn't roll out their own formats until they were in a stronger position but have retained support for most of these old formats.

vlan0 6y ago
I think you may have overlooked the other side of those cables in your examples. While one side of the cable was FireWire or USB, the interface on the device was propriety. And that was true for over a decade worth of iPods, iPhones, and iPads.
- musicale 6y ago
  > While one side of the cable was FireWire or USB, the interface on the device was propriety The original iPod was FireWire-only. The 30-pin dock connector was developed to enable USB and FireWire connectivity as well as docking.
- gumby 6y ago
  I still have an original iPad and it had a big FireWire connector on it. It was FW on both ends. They rapidly switched to USB (w/30 pin at other end) in order to open up the PC market to the* iPod. * I refuse to follow Apples pretentious (proprietary?) refusal to use the article “the” with the iPod and the iPhone.