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The general population doesn’t easily install software. They’ll just lose access to FTP. PDF viewers got integrated into browsers because some users don’t have

The general population doesn’t easily install software. They’ll just lose access to FTP. PDF viewers got integrated into browsers because some users don’t have standalone PDF viewers installed, or they were broken, or they couldn’t find the PDF they just downloaded. Average people use what comes preinstalled. They might not be allowed to install software. Users get stranded on old versions that have to be supported. Install base, “it just works,” and lowest common denominator is crucial if you are working with anyone outside your household or organization. Internet downloads made software distribution much cheaper. App stores fixed the “first Google result is malware” problem. But people will still install an app at much lower rates than clicking something that loads in the browser. FTP as a whole should be replaced but the average person doesn’t have an easy SFTP client installed.

UncleMeat 6y ago
> They’ll just lose access to FTP. What percentage of the "general population" do you think has ever used FTP. Even once in their entire life. I'd wager it is less than 1/10,000 users. If we look for people who use FTP at least once month, I'd wager it is less than 1/10,000,000. Where are these users that need FTP but would get stranded because they can only install a browser?
- im3w1l 6y ago
  I wager the majority has used ftp, but most of them sporadically and without even realizing they were using ftp. Like doing some research for a school project, googling, getting a link to a pdf document on some ftp, clicking the link. Or clicking the download link on some website, and the file is downloaded using ftp. These things used to be very common, but are less common now.
  - UncleMeat 6y ago
    > Like doing some research for a school project, googling, getting a link to a pdf document on some ftp, clicking the link. Or clicking the download link on some website, and the file is downloaded using ftp. I think you are overestimating this. I'd include that in my 1/10,000 number.
- mywittyname 6y ago
  A lot of them. It wasn't that long ago when most large files were hosted on FTP sites. An absurd amount of drivers that I download are still hosted on FTP sites. Most probably didn't realize that they were using FTP, which is the point of having it integrated into the browser.
  - UncleMeat 6y ago
    > An absurd amount of drivers that I download are still hosted on FTP sites. Okay. You are one of the 1/10,000,000. What percentage of people have downloaded a driver through any means other than "plugged in device, it said "install driver" and the user clicked it"?
- apostacy 6y ago
  > What percentage of the "general population" do you think has ever used FTP. Access to a feature is a feature. I have not had to change a tire in over a decade, but my unused spare tire in my car's trunk is actually being used every time I drive, by being available. What about nearly any accessibility feature? What about fire extinguishers? I know that support for the FTP protocol is not nearly as severe, but it is on the same spectrum. For the minority of users that use it the minority of the time, it is good to have it available. As long as it does not impose significant costs to keep ftp support, they should keep it. And as it happens, I have had to use FTP several times recently, because there are still active FTP links in some manuscripts and scholarly articles I've read.
  - UncleMeat 6y ago
    > As long as it does not impose significant costs to keep ftp support, they should keep it. But it does. This is explained in the docs. The existing FTP support is bad and updating it to make it secure is a ton of work. Fire Extinguishers and Spare Tires are safety features. When they are needed, they become absolutely critical. It is also very difficult to predict when they will be needed because they are the result of errors rather than intentional behavior. In-browser FTP is nothing like that.
Kirby64 6y ago
The "average person" doesn't use FTP. There's no reason to include this in a browser as already noted. If you're at the user level where you need FTP, then downloading an application is not an unreasonable request.
pixl97 6y ago
That same average person is just as apt to have a failure connecting to that FTP server in the first place because of support issues going across their NAT router.
bastawhiz 6y ago
I'm a software engineer and I need to use FTP maybe once a year. Chromium hasn't had SFTP support. So it seems like there really aren't very many people at all that _need_ FTP, and nobody is actually losing access to proper FTP support. > Internet downloads made software distribution much cheaper. This seems orthogonal to supporting FTP in a browser.

UncleMeat 6y ago

> They’ll just lose access to FTP. What percentage of the "general population" do you think has ever used FTP. Even once in their entire life. I'd wager it is less than 1/10,000 users. If we look for people who use FTP at least once month, I'd wager it is less than 1/10,000,000. Where are these users that need FTP but would get stranded because they can only install a browser?

im3w1l 6y ago
I wager the majority has used ftp, but most of them sporadically and without even realizing they were using ftp. Like doing some research for a school project, googling, getting a link to a pdf document on some ftp, clicking the link. Or clicking the download link on some website, and the file is downloaded using ftp. These things used to be very common, but are less common now.
- UncleMeat 6y ago
  > Like doing some research for a school project, googling, getting a link to a pdf document on some ftp, clicking the link. Or clicking the download link on some website, and the file is downloaded using ftp. I think you are overestimating this. I'd include that in my 1/10,000 number.
mywittyname 6y ago
A lot of them. It wasn't that long ago when most large files were hosted on FTP sites. An absurd amount of drivers that I download are still hosted on FTP sites. Most probably didn't realize that they were using FTP, which is the point of having it integrated into the browser.
- UncleMeat 6y ago
  > An absurd amount of drivers that I download are still hosted on FTP sites. Okay. You are one of the 1/10,000,000. What percentage of people have downloaded a driver through any means other than "plugged in device, it said "install driver" and the user clicked it"?
apostacy 6y ago
> What percentage of the "general population" do you think has ever used FTP. Access to a feature is a feature. I have not had to change a tire in over a decade, but my unused spare tire in my car's trunk is actually being used every time I drive, by being available. What about nearly any accessibility feature? What about fire extinguishers? I know that support for the FTP protocol is not nearly as severe, but it is on the same spectrum. For the minority of users that use it the minority of the time, it is good to have it available. As long as it does not impose significant costs to keep ftp support, they should keep it. And as it happens, I have had to use FTP several times recently, because there are still active FTP links in some manuscripts and scholarly articles I've read.
- UncleMeat 6y ago
  > As long as it does not impose significant costs to keep ftp support, they should keep it. But it does. This is explained in the docs. The existing FTP support is bad and updating it to make it secure is a ton of work. Fire Extinguishers and Spare Tires are safety features. When they are needed, they become absolutely critical. It is also very difficult to predict when they will be needed because they are the result of errors rather than intentional behavior. In-browser FTP is nothing like that.

Kirby64 6y ago

The "average person" doesn't use FTP. There's no reason to include this in a browser as already noted. If you're at the user level where you need FTP, then downloading an application is not an unreasonable request.

pixl97 6y ago

That same average person is just as apt to have a failure connecting to that FTP server in the first place because of support issues going across their NAT router.

bastawhiz 6y ago

I'm a software engineer and I need to use FTP maybe once a year. Chromium hasn't had SFTP support. So it seems like there really aren't very many people at all that _need_ FTP, and nobody is actually losing access to proper FTP support. > Internet downloads made software distribution much cheaper. This seems orthogonal to supporting FTP in a browser.