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Let's also not forget that Apple also removed a $20-30 accessory from the box under the guise of saving the planet. Then not only decided to not pass that savin

Let's also not forget that Apple also removed a $20-30 accessory from the box under the guise of saving the planet. Then not only decided to not pass that savings onto the customer, but actually secretively raised the price $30. I am not suggesting that removing the power brick doesn't have any impact on the environment. What I am suggesting is that I don't buy for a second that it was the primary motivator for removing it. My guess is that the primary motivator is shipping cost. This has a tangible and significant impact on their profit per unit and that was the driving factor. The fact that they could spin the removal of this device as a painstaking decision they toiled over because they wanted to save the sea turtles is really just a PR spin and was a happy coincidence that they could use. And all those tangible cost savings thanks to the removal of this accessory... not only have those savings not been passed onto the consumer, but they actually increased the price!

stetrain 6y ago
"decided to not pass that savings onto the customer" Do you have access to the BOM? Sure it was likely a cost-savings measure, but it may have been to combat rising prices elsewhere. It's a two-sided equation and we can't see the whole thing. If Apple did want to be environmentally friendly though I would think offering a reasonably priced multi-device (4-ports?) charger would be more effective than just selling a single-device charger separately. One charger for many devices for many years is a better story than "It's the same charger, just purchased separately now."
- saagarjha 6y ago
  They pulled it from all their other iPhones and kept the price the same. I think it's pretty clear it's profit for Apple.
  - gnicholas 6y ago
    Fair point. They do have a significantly upgraded radio, however. I don't remember what happened to pricing when they went from 2G to 3G or 3G to 4G/LTE, but I would not have been surprised if pricing had gone up with the 5G upgrade (in a normal economy). That said, the AT&T/Verizon giveaway/deception is absolute garbage.
    - JoelTheSuperior 6y ago
      Motorola literally sells an Android phone for £200 with 5G. I just don't buy it.
      - gnicholas 6y ago
        The question is: what price does Motorola sell their non-5G phones for? I assume they're cheaper.
      - king_crimson 6y ago
        Question is, does Motorolas offering support the mmWave frequency band? I know that the Motorola Edge+ does support those bands, however it had an introductory price of 999$ so not exactly a bargain.
    - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
      The iPhone 12 (and Mini) also both have OLED displays rather than the iPhone 11's LCD, so it's at least plausible that there's a bit of increased BOM there as well? > That said, the AT&T/Verizon giveaway/deception is absolute garbage. Absolutely. :)
    - tmd83 6y ago
      I don't have a problem with them increasing price. We don't know the cost of the changes in this version and even more so users are not entitled that Apple keep the same profit margin even if the cost is the same. The deception though is claiming that new new phone has all these new goodies with the same price. This is effectively all these new goodies with $50 increase in price ($30 career, $20 charger).
  - stetrain 6y ago
    I believe the only one that stayed the same price was the SE, the XR and 11 both dropped by $100 (but that's a normal yearly move from Apple). But yeah, definitely boosting margins on the older phones.
  - samatman 6y ago
    It's not the same price because it's not the same device. Did Apple increase or decrease their profit per iPhone on this round? Y'know, I have no idea. I do know that trying to come to a conclusion about it on the basis of not including a charger and headphones is impossible.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      > all their other iPhones Take a look at iPhone SE's price before and after October 13th.
      - samatman 6y ago
        I wasn't aware of that, but I don't think the exception of their cheapest phone is particularly interesting or relevant.
        saagarjha 6y ago
        The others dropped $100 as they usually do after an event–except they usually don't lose accessories as well.
- epanchin 6y ago
  If they wanted to be enviroment they would have switched to USB-C. I'm personally happy about the lack of charger, all my Apple ones go into a drawer never to be seen again.
  - JoelTheSuperior 6y ago
    To be fair I've maintained for a while now that the reason Apple uses lightning on the phones is because it's quite frankly much more durable than USB-C.
    - ComputerGuru 6y ago
      Lightning ports are not more durable than USB-C. They are extremely prone to the device-side conductor corroding. USB mini made the mistake of making the device side contain a friction wear item, but USB micro fixed that but had other endurance issues due to its flimsiness. USB C doesn’t suffer from any of those drawbacks.
      - Retric 6y ago
        Everyone I know that got a USB-C phone eventually complained about loose cables. I have been using the same 6 year old lighting cable without issue. On it’s own that doesn’t mean much, but plenty of people dislike USB-C from personal experience.
        readams 6y ago
        They tend to get dust packed into them that you can fix with a pin.
        Retric 6y ago
        Good to know, but that would still be a major design issue. Thinking about it, the best common data connector for interment use might be those credit card chip readers. They can handle more connections in a week than you need to recharge your phone in years. Sure they eventually ware out, but that’s in a business setting.
- hammock 6y ago
  >Do you have access to the BOM? Sure it was likely a cost-savings measure, but it may have been to combat rising prices elsewhere. It's a two-sided equation and we can't see the whole thing. Unless the cost of a powerbrick went up by $50-60, there are savings that Apple is not passing onto the consumer.
  - toper-centage 6y ago
    So you're saying the cost of the iPhone 11 and 12 is the same? Also, why does it matter? These devices were never sold anywhere near their real cost and people still bought them, and still will.
    - deleted 6y ago
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- ksec 6y ago
  >but it may have been to combat rising prices elsewhere. 1. Qualcomm Modem is at least $8 more expensive than Intel according to last court filling. And generally inline with industry expectation of its BOM Cost. Those numbers were for 4G Modem. And I would expect 5G Modem to be even more expensive. 2. mmWave isn't Free. I am very surprised Apple put mmWave inside iPhone 12 as well. The problem with Multi Port Charger is that it is very Un-Apple. What happens when you charge a MacBook and iPad Pro at the same time? You now either expect customers to add up their Wattage to see if your chargers fits or design a multiple port charger to include this scenario, and if you include Apple's normal accessories margin that Charger is going to be insanely expensive. So it is better to leave it to third party to do it. Apple will just recommend you to use their own charger.
chrisseaton 6y ago
> Apple also removed a $20-30 accessory from the box under the guise of saving the planet Come on.... Everyone (to some approximation) has a charger already! Why knock the people trying to reduce waste?
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Then they should have dropped the price of the phone, no? At least, they should have bundled it in some way, considering that very few people probably have a USB-C brick designed for charging iPhones.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > Then they should have dropped the price of the phone, no? But it's a different phone with different components? Are you expecting that the price should otherwise be exactly the same? That's never what happens that's not a reasonable assumption. > considering that very few people probably have a USB-C brick designed for charging iPhones This is not a truthful statement. It can be charged by Lightning, which plugs into any USB-A charger. Anyone buying an iPhone has that.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      > But it's a different phone with different components? iPhone SE is still $399
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        Does it still cost the same to produce? Was it sold at a loss before? Do you know any of these things?
    - greedo 6y ago
      The Lightning cable is Lightning->USB-C. So all the old USB-A chargers won't work... Which means that people will through this cable in a drawer and use their old one (if it still works properly). One reason I loved getting a new iPhone was getting a new cable, charger and headphones since my old one's were usually beat after 2-3 years. So this is a huge pain in the wallet, as well as inconvenient.
newsclues 6y ago
They may be passing savings along by not raising prices more.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  They're not.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    This is not an honest statement, unless you have access to their pricing and costs.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      I don't need to; they just pulled those accessories out of boxes they've been selling for years.
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        But this new phone has different components. How do you know that the price of the phone without accessories is the same as before?
        kortilla 6y ago
        They pulled it out of existing iPhone lineup.
        chrisseaton 6y ago
        Are their costs the same as they were when the phones were released?
        gnicholas 6y ago
        This is the key fact. It demonstrates that they're not interested in passing along cost savings, even where they clearly exist. This isn't just about new phones, it affects the SE as well.
josefresco 6y ago
See also their accidental leadership in "consumer privacy".
- marketingPro 6y ago
  That's just marketing speak. They have no issue giving your data to governments. PRISM for a US example. If not for Snowden we wouldn't know this. How many other governments and Corporations are getting data?
ehsankia 6y ago
But what about Google include Verizon's mmWave in the Pixel 5, even the Google Store version, increasing the price by $100? Strangely enough, the 4a 5G on the Google Store doesn't have it, but there's a special Verizon version of the 4a 5G that costs $100 more. I honestly don't understand why they didn't do the same thing and sell the Pixel 5 for $600 on the Google Store...
AgloeDreams 6y ago
For what it is worth, I noticed that there are a lot of little bits added to the phone with the 12 however. The display is an OLED like the Pro, honestly the new phone seems like a lot of bang for the buck. They even came out with a smaller $100 cheaper model.
- alistairSH 6y ago
  The smaller model is the same price. The same-size model went up $100.
mqrs 6y ago
Whatever the reason is--are corporations obliged to pass cost savings to the customer, or is their objective to maximize profit margins?
- Fauntleroy 6y ago
  Sigh... no, corporations are obligated to chase profit with absolute avarice :( Maybe we should strive for something better than pure capitalism, though?
  - deleted 6y ago
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mtm7 6y ago
It's going to be incredibly frustrating for the average person to buy an almost-$1000 device, use it until it runs out of battery, and realize that a charger is a completely separate purchase. Especially because the included cable is USB-C, so it won't work with most old power bricks. I feel like Steve wouldn't've let this happen... the UX is just so, so bad. It feels incredibly profit-motivated.
- GVIrish 6y ago
  It's not bad that it's profit-motivated, it's bad because it is short-sighted, greedy and consumer-hostile. This is the type of thing that is done because (many) someone's bonus is tied to some profit margin kpi, and they figured out the cheapest, most direct way to do it, customer be damned.
- notJim 6y ago
  Are you serious? You think the average person a) doesn't know that you have to charge your phone and b) doesn't have like 50 of those stupid cubes and a bunch of cables sitting in a drawer somewhere? Tech people's continued assumption that they're the only ones who aren't total troglodytes is ridiculous.
  - alistairSH 6y ago
    Most of thee existing Apple charging cubes are not USB-C. The cable included with the new phones is USB-C -> Lightning. So, the cable doesn't work with most existing chargers (unless you happen to also own an iPad Pro).
    - TwoBit 6y ago
      Yeah but the five other cables/chargers in their drawer do work.
      - alistairSH 6y ago
        Then why include the cable? Save a few more whales and leave it out as well. If I were king... the phone would be sold “bare”, but for $30 less. If somebody needs a charger or cable, they can use that $30 to buy one. Instead, Apple remove the charger, includes a cable not compatible with most iPhone owner’s existing chargers, increased the price $30, and tell me it’s to save the planet? GTFO. (Really, I’m not nearly as annoyed as I probably sound, I just hate the inconsistency)
tqkxzugoaupvwqr 6y ago
Removing the charger under the guise of helping the environment was disingenuous by Apple. They said they shipped a billion chargers so they’ll just include the cable from now on. Well, the cable is Lightning-to-USB-C, not USB-A. Apple shipped nearly zero USB-C chargers and many people getting an iPhone will have to buy one. In the end, Apple removed the charger but didn’t lower the price, and people still have to buy a charger.
- oflannabhra 6y ago
  True, but there's nothing from preventing you from using your old phones USB-A to lightning cord and brick to charge your new phone. That is what I plan on doing.
  - babesh 6y ago
    The problem is that the cables have a weakness that causes them to eventually break. Getting a new brick and cable to go with the phone solves that issue at least for a few years. With the new cable being USB-C, you can’t use the old brick with the new cable. The brick was also useful when traveling to places without USB-C ports or even other USB ports.
    - dkonofalski 6y ago
      But that's the whole point. You'll buy one at that point because you need it. Giving people the brick whether they need it or not is what makes it wasteful and costly for all involved.
      - babesh 6y ago
        The point is that you will most likely immediately need it. Example, I charge my phone bedside. Now I need to either buy a brick or if I do what Apple wants me to do which is to buy the MagSafe charger. This incentivizes people to buy yet another Apple accessory. That and margins are the real purpose. One more foot into the Apple ecosystem.
_qulr 6y ago
> Then not only decided to not pass that savings onto the customer, but actually secretively raised the price $30. They raised the price $130. iPhone 11 was $699, iPhone 12 is $829. Apple slipped in the "mini" at the old price point, but it's a smaller screen.
- josephg 6y ago
  I feel mixed about the price going up. On one hand, it feels like gouging. There’s no way the phone costs that much more to manufacture. On the other hand, I’ve been using an iPhone 6s+ since it came out (5 years now) and it still works really well and still gets software updates. I’m thinking of getting an iPhone 12 but I still don’t actually need to - a battery replacement every few years keeps it working as it did when it was brand new. How long will my next phone last? At least 5 more years. Probably longer. Spread over 5 years the price is fine, and I’d rather buy something that’s designed to last (and remains supported) than buy a series of cheap phones that get ruined or ignored every couple years by software updates. (Looking at you, Samsung). If my phone lasts 50% longer, a 30% bump in price is reasonable. Even if I don’t use it that long, I can make that money back on the second hand market when I upgrade.
null0pointer 6y ago
You already mentioned shipping cost, which is improved by better shipping density with the smaller boxes. Shipping is a huge carbon producer, so it makes sense to me that increasing density both makes it more cost effective for Apple and reduces the amount of impact on the environment. It's not only about e-waste.
shin_lao 6y ago
I'm actually very happy they did because every time I upgraded, the headphones and the adapter would end up in a box. I have enough adapters to build a fort, which is kind of cool, but also kind of useless.
- thirdsun 6y ago
  I'm surprised. Do people not sell their old iPhones? Since it's significant money I always sell my old device and obviously I include the (unused) headphones as well as the charger (which I actually do use)
etempleton 6y ago
I do not buy for a second that environmental concerns were Apple's primary reason for removing the power brick and the lightning headphones from the box, though I think the decision makes sense. The lighting headphones are more of a pain than they are worth and most consumers have enough five watt power bricks floating around if they really need one. From a PR and messaging stand point environmentalism was really the most elegant explanation without diving into market research on consumer behavior and component costs. The Verizon 5G presentation and the opaque pricing are real head-scratchers. Why include Verizon at all? They are in last place in the US on 5G deployment and 5G is going to be largely meaningless for most consumers. So to have Verizon out there and then act like 5G is a huge deal says to me that they felt like they did not have enough to talk about with their new phones. It is faster, the cameras are better, they redesigned it, but it is kind of a mashup of the old design and new design, nothing revolutionary. They went hard on 5G because it is all they really have new to talk about. Verizon was needed filler and likely signed some kind of co-marketing deal to be on stage. I would expect a lot of iPhone-centric Verizon commercials over the next year. And as far as the subsidy, I think it is fine to have carriers subsidize phone costs for their consumers, but $30 is peanuts on a $700+ phone and not worth any confusion or ill will generated by those who thought they were getting an unlocked phone for $699 as advertised.
- theshrike79 6y ago
  It's not the environment, the main reason was logistics efficiency. They can get more phones per standard pallet and will save millions in shipping and storage costs. The environmental stuff is a nice bonus and excellent PR.
- gruturo 6y ago
  Every year the new model has a gimmick - I mean, a new, unique, compelling selling point. 3G: 3G! 3GS: Speed! 4: Retina Display! 4S: Siri! 5: 4G! 5S: Touch ID! 64bit! 6: Finally bigger size! Also, Apple Pay! 6S: 3D Touch! (groan) 7: Dual camera! X: Face ID! Xs Max: Even bigger! Dual Sim! 11 ProMax: Triple camera! 12 ProMax: 5G, Lidar! 5G is meaningless to a lot of people, yours truly included, and will most likely stay meaningless for a couple years at least, given the tiny deployments and the minimal speed advantage. But it's a big deal so it had to be one new model year's gimmick. I'm happy we got over it, so maybe next year they'll have to come up with something I actually care to buy.
duxup 6y ago
I feel weird about sort of defending this practice but ... I don't have a problem with it. There it is, the phone without a charger is the offer, you know it, I know it. We all know the price and the product. There's no mystery here. This stuff about if it was a hard decision or not, I don't see how it matters. Folks who take this kinda of marketing to heart, I just don't get it.
- marketingPro 6y ago
  To anyone who isn't stuck in the Apple ecosystem it appears that Apple is squeezing their customers yet again. And a response defending them is no surprise. The human brain will rationalize anything.
  - duxup 6y ago
    "squeezing their customers yet again" What qualifies as that exactly? The amount of hyperbole about a $30 bit of metal and plastic (that I bet many folks already own) is pretty crazy to me.
    - pwinnski 6y ago
      And almost entirely from people who don't and won't own iPhones anyway.
    - stouset 6y ago
      Only $20 now. For (from what I’ve come to understand from seeing tear downs) arguably the highest-quality and safest device in the category.
  - macjohnmcc 6y ago
    We are not sheep we know the cost and we value the product. That is not being a sheep. I have tried and don't care for Android phones and tablets. Not because I feel like having an Apple on the product makes it better but because I enjoy using it more.
  - vmception 6y ago
dillondoyle 6y ago
What % of iphone users already have (multiple) charger bricks? I would intuit a large % of buyers already have multiple which personally I think gives more credit to in Apple's excuse
- VBprogrammer 6y ago
  Dozens of USB-A charger bricks sure. Heck, I've added them to our bedroom wall sockets to save having to have extra things plugged in. USB-C? One for my work MacBook.
  - josephg 6y ago
    So? Just don’t use the included cable. I’m overflowing with USB-A to lightning cables. Apple bundled USB-A to lightning cables with their wireless trackpad and keyboard even after they dropped USB-A ports on their laptops. And if you don’t have any, they cost like $3 from the supermarket or drug store. I’m going the other way. I think my phone charger is one of the last USB-A chargers in my house, and it’s days are numbered. I love being able to throw my laptop charger in my bag when I travel and charge all my devices with the same brick.
ssully 6y ago
Regardless of their reasoning, I don't mind it because I have a box filled with unused phone charges and headphones from my families phone purchases. My only real concern is first time phone buyers. I think Apple stores (online or in person) should ask if you need headphones/wall charger when you purchase and just include a free set if you do.
- theshrike79 6y ago
  Oh, they will upsell the SHIT out of accessories when you go grab the new phones. They won't mention you can get a 23W usb-c charger for $12 from Ikea, they'll sell you the $39 Apple one.
  - robertoandred 6y ago
    Apple’s is $19.
  - deleted 6y ago
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jiggawatts 6y ago
There is another aspect to this people might be missing: If every phone that is shipped must come with a charger, but half the chargers are never used, then the marginal value gained by customers from the manufacturer improving that product is also halved. So why bother making the charger good? Half the people won't use it! They'd have to pay for something that's not a direct benefit to the product they do want to buy: the phone. This is one of the reasons the chargers that come with typical electronic devices are so bad. So very very bad. They're big. They're odd shaped. They can't be plugged in side-by-side. They're heavy. The don't provide much power. They're inefficient. Etc... Some are downright dangerous. It's a race to the bottom where noone wins. Here's the thing: I like the "fancy" chargers Apple makes. They use very advanced technology such as gallium nitride circuitry to miniaturise their chargers. They're tiny, yet powerful! They don't get hot. They're light. They're safe. But I only need one or two, but only when travelling. At home I need none because the IKEA power strips have USB charging ports built in! I'd much rather concentrate my dollars into a couple of really good chargers instead of a bunch of mediocre chargers that's forced upon me on a one-to-one basis with the number of devices that I own. Also: I haven't used a wired charger for my phone in about a year. Why include a wired charger if the customer has a choice of charging technologies? Should Apple include both a wireless and wired charger? Should they include a car-kit too? No. This is the point of standards: it lets you mix and match components at will instead of getting a fixed combination.
- soperj 6y ago
  >This is the point of standards Except apple doesn't use standards. They use their own proprietary ports.
  - mmm_grayons 6y ago
    In fairness to Apple, they didn't just make other ports for the sake of it. When lightning mini was made, it was objectively better than mini-USB. When magsafe was made, it was objectively better than barrel plugs (and for charging, it's still better than USB-C.) Now that the standards are better, Apple is slowly transitioning to USB-C, which is a standard.
thamer 6y ago
But… you have no idea what the reasons were and how much each argument weighed. The CEO of Anker (they make chargers and charging accessories) estimates that 1 year of smartphone sales leads to 300,000 tons of e-waste from charging bricks. This matters way more than speculations about shipping costs. Have you seen Apple packaging? Nothing about it is light or cheap. I really hope other companies follow suit.
unwabuisi 6y ago
"We care so much about the environment, we'll use two packages instead of just one now."
stouset 6y ago
> And all those tangible cost savings thanks to the removal of this accessory... not only have those savings not been passed onto the consumer, but they actually increased the price! With all due respect, this isn’t insightful; it’s asinine. The iPhone 12 is a completely new device, yet you’re acting like they took the existing product, removed a piece from the box, and jacked up the price. When planning this new device, the designers were constrained by a cost budget for both the bill of materials and manufacturing. By not including a charging brick, those designers had extra headroom in the budget, and neither you nor I have any idea what this headroom was used for (or to be fair, if it was used at all). They may have had even more extra headroom than the nominal cost of the brick due to increased shipping efficiencies driving down overall costs further. 70% more devices per pallet (if I remember the figures correctly) is no joke! I’d argue the most likely scenario is that if the charging brick had been included, the price would be $10-$20 higher than it is, for a device that many of us already own five or more of and have no use for. Your assertion that they’re simply pocketing the difference is to be frank completely unfounded.
- ksec 6y ago
  >70% more devices per pallet (if I remember the figures correctly) is no joke! I think that was the figure they used and it was more of a spin. ( Unless Flight has changed in recent years ) They were already flying at max load before the packaging got smaller. I did a calculation on HN some months ago and expect may be 30% increase in shipment unit due to weight saving from box, charger and earpiece. Pretty Decent, but not 70% as they did like you to think.
Siira 6y ago
Considering my family actually buys extra chargers, cables, and earpods, I also don't buy their env argument at all. Perhaps if you buy phones each year that'd be true, but then, you are having a much bigger impact by buying the extra phones and the accessories are marginal. Anyways, they could just say that they'd give one away for free to anyone who wanted it with their phone purchase.

stetrain 6y ago

"decided to not pass that savings onto the customer" Do you have access to the BOM? Sure it was likely a cost-savings measure, but it may have been to combat rising prices elsewhere. It's a two-sided equation and we can't see the whole thing. If Apple did want to be environmentally friendly though I would think offering a reasonably priced multi-device (4-ports?) charger would be more effective than just selling a single-device charger separately. One charger for many devices for many years is a better story than "It's the same charger, just purchased separately now."

saagarjha 6y ago
They pulled it from all their other iPhones and kept the price the same. I think it's pretty clear it's profit for Apple.
- gnicholas 6y ago
  Fair point. They do have a significantly upgraded radio, however. I don't remember what happened to pricing when they went from 2G to 3G or 3G to 4G/LTE, but I would not have been surprised if pricing had gone up with the 5G upgrade (in a normal economy). That said, the AT&T/Verizon giveaway/deception is absolute garbage.
  - JoelTheSuperior 6y ago
    Motorola literally sells an Android phone for £200 with 5G. I just don't buy it.
    - gnicholas 6y ago
      The question is: what price does Motorola sell their non-5G phones for? I assume they're cheaper.
    - king_crimson 6y ago
      Question is, does Motorolas offering support the mmWave frequency band? I know that the Motorola Edge+ does support those bands, however it had an introductory price of 999$ so not exactly a bargain.
  - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
    The iPhone 12 (and Mini) also both have OLED displays rather than the iPhone 11's LCD, so it's at least plausible that there's a bit of increased BOM there as well? > That said, the AT&T/Verizon giveaway/deception is absolute garbage. Absolutely. :)
  - tmd83 6y ago
    I don't have a problem with them increasing price. We don't know the cost of the changes in this version and even more so users are not entitled that Apple keep the same profit margin even if the cost is the same. The deception though is claiming that new new phone has all these new goodies with the same price. This is effectively all these new goodies with $50 increase in price ($30 career, $20 charger).
- stetrain 6y ago
  I believe the only one that stayed the same price was the SE, the XR and 11 both dropped by $100 (but that's a normal yearly move from Apple). But yeah, definitely boosting margins on the older phones.
- samatman 6y ago
  It's not the same price because it's not the same device. Did Apple increase or decrease their profit per iPhone on this round? Y'know, I have no idea. I do know that trying to come to a conclusion about it on the basis of not including a charger and headphones is impossible.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    > all their other iPhones Take a look at iPhone SE's price before and after October 13th.
    - samatman 6y ago
      I wasn't aware of that, but I don't think the exception of their cheapest phone is particularly interesting or relevant.
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        The others dropped $100 as they usually do after an event–except they usually don't lose accessories as well.
epanchin 6y ago
If they wanted to be enviroment they would have switched to USB-C. I'm personally happy about the lack of charger, all my Apple ones go into a drawer never to be seen again.
- JoelTheSuperior 6y ago
  To be fair I've maintained for a while now that the reason Apple uses lightning on the phones is because it's quite frankly much more durable than USB-C.
  - ComputerGuru 6y ago
    Lightning ports are not more durable than USB-C. They are extremely prone to the device-side conductor corroding. USB mini made the mistake of making the device side contain a friction wear item, but USB micro fixed that but had other endurance issues due to its flimsiness. USB C doesn’t suffer from any of those drawbacks.
    - Retric 6y ago
      Everyone I know that got a USB-C phone eventually complained about loose cables. I have been using the same 6 year old lighting cable without issue. On it’s own that doesn’t mean much, but plenty of people dislike USB-C from personal experience.
      - readams 6y ago
        They tend to get dust packed into them that you can fix with a pin.
        Retric 6y ago
        Good to know, but that would still be a major design issue. Thinking about it, the best common data connector for interment use might be those credit card chip readers. They can handle more connections in a week than you need to recharge your phone in years. Sure they eventually ware out, but that’s in a business setting.
hammock 6y ago
>Do you have access to the BOM? Sure it was likely a cost-savings measure, but it may have been to combat rising prices elsewhere. It's a two-sided equation and we can't see the whole thing. Unless the cost of a powerbrick went up by $50-60, there are savings that Apple is not passing onto the consumer.
- toper-centage 6y ago
  So you're saying the cost of the iPhone 11 and 12 is the same? Also, why does it matter? These devices were never sold anywhere near their real cost and people still bought them, and still will.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
ksec 6y ago
>but it may have been to combat rising prices elsewhere. 1. Qualcomm Modem is at least $8 more expensive than Intel according to last court filling. And generally inline with industry expectation of its BOM Cost. Those numbers were for 4G Modem. And I would expect 5G Modem to be even more expensive. 2. mmWave isn't Free. I am very surprised Apple put mmWave inside iPhone 12 as well. The problem with Multi Port Charger is that it is very Un-Apple. What happens when you charge a MacBook and iPad Pro at the same time? You now either expect customers to add up their Wattage to see if your chargers fits or design a multiple port charger to include this scenario, and if you include Apple's normal accessories margin that Charger is going to be insanely expensive. So it is better to leave it to third party to do it. Apple will just recommend you to use their own charger.

chrisseaton 6y ago

> Apple also removed a $20-30 accessory from the box under the guise of saving the planet Come on.... Everyone (to some approximation) has a charger already! Why knock the people trying to reduce waste?

saagarjha 6y ago
Then they should have dropped the price of the phone, no? At least, they should have bundled it in some way, considering that very few people probably have a USB-C brick designed for charging iPhones.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > Then they should have dropped the price of the phone, no? But it's a different phone with different components? Are you expecting that the price should otherwise be exactly the same? That's never what happens that's not a reasonable assumption. > considering that very few people probably have a USB-C brick designed for charging iPhones This is not a truthful statement. It can be charged by Lightning, which plugs into any USB-A charger. Anyone buying an iPhone has that.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    > But it's a different phone with different components? iPhone SE is still $399
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      Does it still cost the same to produce? Was it sold at a loss before? Do you know any of these things?
  - greedo 6y ago
    The Lightning cable is Lightning->USB-C. So all the old USB-A chargers won't work... Which means that people will through this cable in a drawer and use their old one (if it still works properly). One reason I loved getting a new iPhone was getting a new cable, charger and headphones since my old one's were usually beat after 2-3 years. So this is a huge pain in the wallet, as well as inconvenient.

newsclues 6y ago

They may be passing savings along by not raising prices more.

saagarjha 6y ago
They're not.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  This is not an honest statement, unless you have access to their pricing and costs.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    I don't need to; they just pulled those accessories out of boxes they've been selling for years.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      But this new phone has different components. How do you know that the price of the phone without accessories is the same as before?
      - kortilla 6y ago
        They pulled it out of existing iPhone lineup.
        chrisseaton 6y ago
        Are their costs the same as they were when the phones were released?
        gnicholas 6y ago
        This is the key fact. It demonstrates that they're not interested in passing along cost savings, even where they clearly exist. This isn't just about new phones, it affects the SE as well.

josefresco 6y ago

See also their accidental leadership in "consumer privacy".

marketingPro 6y ago
That's just marketing speak. They have no issue giving your data to governments. PRISM for a US example. If not for Snowden we wouldn't know this. How many other governments and Corporations are getting data?

ehsankia 6y ago

But what about Google include Verizon's mmWave in the Pixel 5, even the Google Store version, increasing the price by $100? Strangely enough, the 4a 5G on the Google Store doesn't have it, but there's a special Verizon version of the 4a 5G that costs $100 more. I honestly don't understand why they didn't do the same thing and sell the Pixel 5 for $600 on the Google Store...

AgloeDreams 6y ago

For what it is worth, I noticed that there are a lot of little bits added to the phone with the 12 however. The display is an OLED like the Pro, honestly the new phone seems like a lot of bang for the buck. They even came out with a smaller $100 cheaper model.

alistairSH 6y ago
The smaller model is the same price. The same-size model went up $100.

mqrs 6y ago

Whatever the reason is--are corporations obliged to pass cost savings to the customer, or is their objective to maximize profit margins?

Fauntleroy 6y ago
Sigh... no, corporations are obligated to chase profit with absolute avarice :( Maybe we should strive for something better than pure capitalism, though?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

mtm7 6y ago

It's going to be incredibly frustrating for the average person to buy an almost-$1000 device, use it until it runs out of battery, and realize that a charger is a completely separate purchase. Especially because the included cable is USB-C, so it won't work with most old power bricks. I feel like Steve wouldn't've let this happen... the UX is just so, so bad. It feels incredibly profit-motivated.

GVIrish 6y ago
It's not bad that it's profit-motivated, it's bad because it is short-sighted, greedy and consumer-hostile. This is the type of thing that is done because (many) someone's bonus is tied to some profit margin kpi, and they figured out the cheapest, most direct way to do it, customer be damned.
notJim 6y ago
Are you serious? You think the average person a) doesn't know that you have to charge your phone and b) doesn't have like 50 of those stupid cubes and a bunch of cables sitting in a drawer somewhere? Tech people's continued assumption that they're the only ones who aren't total troglodytes is ridiculous.
- alistairSH 6y ago
  Most of thee existing Apple charging cubes are not USB-C. The cable included with the new phones is USB-C -> Lightning. So, the cable doesn't work with most existing chargers (unless you happen to also own an iPad Pro).
  - TwoBit 6y ago
    Yeah but the five other cables/chargers in their drawer do work.
    - alistairSH 6y ago
      Then why include the cable? Save a few more whales and leave it out as well. If I were king... the phone would be sold “bare”, but for $30 less. If somebody needs a charger or cable, they can use that $30 to buy one. Instead, Apple remove the charger, includes a cable not compatible with most iPhone owner’s existing chargers, increased the price $30, and tell me it’s to save the planet? GTFO. (Really, I’m not nearly as annoyed as I probably sound, I just hate the inconsistency)

tqkxzugoaupvwqr 6y ago

Removing the charger under the guise of helping the environment was disingenuous by Apple. They said they shipped a billion chargers so they’ll just include the cable from now on. Well, the cable is Lightning-to-USB-C, not USB-A. Apple shipped nearly zero USB-C chargers and many people getting an iPhone will have to buy one. In the end, Apple removed the charger but didn’t lower the price, and people still have to buy a charger.

oflannabhra 6y ago
True, but there's nothing from preventing you from using your old phones USB-A to lightning cord and brick to charge your new phone. That is what I plan on doing.
- babesh 6y ago
  The problem is that the cables have a weakness that causes them to eventually break. Getting a new brick and cable to go with the phone solves that issue at least for a few years. With the new cable being USB-C, you can’t use the old brick with the new cable. The brick was also useful when traveling to places without USB-C ports or even other USB ports.
  - dkonofalski 6y ago
    But that's the whole point. You'll buy one at that point because you need it. Giving people the brick whether they need it or not is what makes it wasteful and costly for all involved.
    - babesh 6y ago
      The point is that you will most likely immediately need it. Example, I charge my phone bedside. Now I need to either buy a brick or if I do what Apple wants me to do which is to buy the MagSafe charger. This incentivizes people to buy yet another Apple accessory. That and margins are the real purpose. One more foot into the Apple ecosystem.

_qulr 6y ago

> Then not only decided to not pass that savings onto the customer, but actually secretively raised the price $30. They raised the price $130. iPhone 11 was $699, iPhone 12 is $829. Apple slipped in the "mini" at the old price point, but it's a smaller screen.

josephg 6y ago
I feel mixed about the price going up. On one hand, it feels like gouging. There’s no way the phone costs that much more to manufacture. On the other hand, I’ve been using an iPhone 6s+ since it came out (5 years now) and it still works really well and still gets software updates. I’m thinking of getting an iPhone 12 but I still don’t actually need to - a battery replacement every few years keeps it working as it did when it was brand new. How long will my next phone last? At least 5 more years. Probably longer. Spread over 5 years the price is fine, and I’d rather buy something that’s designed to last (and remains supported) than buy a series of cheap phones that get ruined or ignored every couple years by software updates. (Looking at you, Samsung). If my phone lasts 50% longer, a 30% bump in price is reasonable. Even if I don’t use it that long, I can make that money back on the second hand market when I upgrade.

null0pointer 6y ago

You already mentioned shipping cost, which is improved by better shipping density with the smaller boxes. Shipping is a huge carbon producer, so it makes sense to me that increasing density both makes it more cost effective for Apple and reduces the amount of impact on the environment. It's not only about e-waste.

shin_lao 6y ago

I'm actually very happy they did because every time I upgraded, the headphones and the adapter would end up in a box. I have enough adapters to build a fort, which is kind of cool, but also kind of useless.

thirdsun 6y ago
I'm surprised. Do people not sell their old iPhones? Since it's significant money I always sell my old device and obviously I include the (unused) headphones as well as the charger (which I actually do use)

etempleton 6y ago

I do not buy for a second that environmental concerns were Apple's primary reason for removing the power brick and the lightning headphones from the box, though I think the decision makes sense. The lighting headphones are more of a pain than they are worth and most consumers have enough five watt power bricks floating around if they really need one. From a PR and messaging stand point environmentalism was really the most elegant explanation without diving into market research on consumer behavior and component costs. The Verizon 5G presentation and the opaque pricing are real head-scratchers. Why include Verizon at all? They are in last place in the US on 5G deployment and 5G is going to be largely meaningless for most consumers. So to have Verizon out there and then act like 5G is a huge deal says to me that they felt like they did not have enough to talk about with their new phones. It is faster, the cameras are better, they redesigned it, but it is kind of a mashup of the old design and new design, nothing revolutionary. They went hard on 5G because it is all they really have new to talk about. Verizon was needed filler and likely signed some kind of co-marketing deal to be on stage. I would expect a lot of iPhone-centric Verizon commercials over the next year. And as far as the subsidy, I think it is fine to have carriers subsidize phone costs for their consumers, but $30 is peanuts on a $700+ phone and not worth any confusion or ill will generated by those who thought they were getting an unlocked phone for $699 as advertised.

theshrike79 6y ago
It's not the environment, the main reason was logistics efficiency. They can get more phones per standard pallet and will save millions in shipping and storage costs. The environmental stuff is a nice bonus and excellent PR.
gruturo 6y ago
Every year the new model has a gimmick - I mean, a new, unique, compelling selling point. 3G: 3G! 3GS: Speed! 4: Retina Display! 4S: Siri! 5: 4G! 5S: Touch ID! 64bit! 6: Finally bigger size! Also, Apple Pay! 6S: 3D Touch! (groan) 7: Dual camera! X: Face ID! Xs Max: Even bigger! Dual Sim! 11 ProMax: Triple camera! 12 ProMax: 5G, Lidar! 5G is meaningless to a lot of people, yours truly included, and will most likely stay meaningless for a couple years at least, given the tiny deployments and the minimal speed advantage. But it's a big deal so it had to be one new model year's gimmick. I'm happy we got over it, so maybe next year they'll have to come up with something I actually care to buy.

duxup 6y ago

I feel weird about sort of defending this practice but ... I don't have a problem with it. There it is, the phone without a charger is the offer, you know it, I know it. We all know the price and the product. There's no mystery here. This stuff about if it was a hard decision or not, I don't see how it matters. Folks who take this kinda of marketing to heart, I just don't get it.

marketingPro 6y ago
To anyone who isn't stuck in the Apple ecosystem it appears that Apple is squeezing their customers yet again. And a response defending them is no surprise. The human brain will rationalize anything.
- duxup 6y ago
  "squeezing their customers yet again" What qualifies as that exactly? The amount of hyperbole about a $30 bit of metal and plastic (that I bet many folks already own) is pretty crazy to me.
  - pwinnski 6y ago
    And almost entirely from people who don't and won't own iPhones anyway.
  - stouset 6y ago
    Only $20 now. For (from what I’ve come to understand from seeing tear downs) arguably the highest-quality and safest device in the category.
- macjohnmcc 6y ago
  We are not sheep we know the cost and we value the product. That is not being a sheep. I have tried and don't care for Android phones and tablets. Not because I feel like having an Apple on the product makes it better but because I enjoy using it more.
- vmception 6y ago

dillondoyle 6y ago

What % of iphone users already have (multiple) charger bricks? I would intuit a large % of buyers already have multiple which personally I think gives more credit to in Apple's excuse

VBprogrammer 6y ago
Dozens of USB-A charger bricks sure. Heck, I've added them to our bedroom wall sockets to save having to have extra things plugged in. USB-C? One for my work MacBook.
- josephg 6y ago
  So? Just don’t use the included cable. I’m overflowing with USB-A to lightning cables. Apple bundled USB-A to lightning cables with their wireless trackpad and keyboard even after they dropped USB-A ports on their laptops. And if you don’t have any, they cost like $3 from the supermarket or drug store. I’m going the other way. I think my phone charger is one of the last USB-A chargers in my house, and it’s days are numbered. I love being able to throw my laptop charger in my bag when I travel and charge all my devices with the same brick.

ssully 6y ago

Regardless of their reasoning, I don't mind it because I have a box filled with unused phone charges and headphones from my families phone purchases. My only real concern is first time phone buyers. I think Apple stores (online or in person) should ask if you need headphones/wall charger when you purchase and just include a free set if you do.

theshrike79 6y ago
Oh, they will upsell the SHIT out of accessories when you go grab the new phones. They won't mention you can get a 23W usb-c charger for $12 from Ikea, they'll sell you the $39 Apple one.
- robertoandred 6y ago
  Apple’s is $19.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

jiggawatts 6y ago

There is another aspect to this people might be missing: If every phone that is shipped must come with a charger, but half the chargers are never used, then the marginal value gained by customers from the manufacturer improving that product is also halved. So why bother making the charger good? Half the people won't use it! They'd have to pay for something that's not a direct benefit to the product they do want to buy: the phone. This is one of the reasons the chargers that come with typical electronic devices are so bad. So very very bad. They're big. They're odd shaped. They can't be plugged in side-by-side. They're heavy. The don't provide much power. They're inefficient. Etc... Some are downright dangerous. It's a race to the bottom where noone wins. Here's the thing: I like the "fancy" chargers Apple makes. They use very advanced technology such as gallium nitride circuitry to miniaturise their chargers. They're tiny, yet powerful! They don't get hot. They're light. They're safe. But I only need one or two, but only when travelling. At home I need none because the IKEA power strips have USB charging ports built in! I'd much rather concentrate my dollars into a couple of really good chargers instead of a bunch of mediocre chargers that's forced upon me on a one-to-one basis with the number of devices that I own. Also: I haven't used a wired charger for my phone in about a year. Why include a wired charger if the customer has a choice of charging technologies? Should Apple include both a wireless and wired charger? Should they include a car-kit too? No. This is the point of standards: it lets you mix and match components at will instead of getting a fixed combination.

soperj 6y ago
>This is the point of standards Except apple doesn't use standards. They use their own proprietary ports.
- mmm_grayons 6y ago
  In fairness to Apple, they didn't just make other ports for the sake of it. When lightning mini was made, it was objectively better than mini-USB. When magsafe was made, it was objectively better than barrel plugs (and for charging, it's still better than USB-C.) Now that the standards are better, Apple is slowly transitioning to USB-C, which is a standard.

thamer 6y ago

But… you have no idea what the reasons were and how much each argument weighed. The CEO of Anker (they make chargers and charging accessories) estimates that 1 year of smartphone sales leads to 300,000 tons of e-waste from charging bricks. This matters way more than speculations about shipping costs. Have you seen Apple packaging? Nothing about it is light or cheap. I really hope other companies follow suit.

unwabuisi 6y ago

"We care so much about the environment, we'll use two packages instead of just one now."

stouset 6y ago

> And all those tangible cost savings thanks to the removal of this accessory... not only have those savings not been passed onto the consumer, but they actually increased the price! With all due respect, this isn’t insightful; it’s asinine. The iPhone 12 is a completely new device, yet you’re acting like they took the existing product, removed a piece from the box, and jacked up the price. When planning this new device, the designers were constrained by a cost budget for both the bill of materials and manufacturing. By not including a charging brick, those designers had extra headroom in the budget, and neither you nor I have any idea what this headroom was used for (or to be fair, if it was used at all). They may have had even more extra headroom than the nominal cost of the brick due to increased shipping efficiencies driving down overall costs further. 70% more devices per pallet (if I remember the figures correctly) is no joke! I’d argue the most likely scenario is that if the charging brick had been included, the price would be $10-$20 higher than it is, for a device that many of us already own five or more of and have no use for. Your assertion that they’re simply pocketing the difference is to be frank completely unfounded.

ksec 6y ago
>70% more devices per pallet (if I remember the figures correctly) is no joke! I think that was the figure they used and it was more of a spin. ( Unless Flight has changed in recent years ) They were already flying at max load before the packaging got smaller. I did a calculation on HN some months ago and expect may be 30% increase in shipment unit due to weight saving from box, charger and earpiece. Pretty Decent, but not 70% as they did like you to think.

Siira 6y ago

Considering my family actually buys extra chargers, cables, and earpods, I also don't buy their env argument at all. Perhaps if you buy phones each year that'd be true, but then, you are having a much bigger impact by buying the extra phones and the accessories are marginal. Anyways, they could just say that they'd give one away for free to anyone who wanted it with their phone purchase.