7 ms·

It's easy to move quickly when you do not care for quality control.

by ProAm 6y ago

Giorgi 6y ago
German built cars are notorious for shitty quality, I own one. They suck.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- cpursley 6y ago
  You're getting downvoted but German vehicles are pretty consistently rated as unreliable by major publications and research groups. (Don't get me wrong, the BMW M line is pretty sweet)
  - nottorp 6y ago
    Anecdote 1: I know someone who returned a Mercedes E-Klasse at the end of the lease because the electronics kept failing and a replacement sensor was 3000 a pop out of warranty. Anecdote 2: I drove a friend's brand new Tesla and one of the rear doors totally didn't line up with the car's body. So I'd say, German cars are a myth but Tesla's quality control sucks as well.
    - artificial 6y ago
      Ancedote: I've usually seen foggy lights (front or rear) with the Teslas. From what I've heard it's improved. They're neat cars, just sucks having quality issues with any high end product.
  - cromwellian 6y ago
    They’re reliable until they hit their warranty and then everything breaks. My wife’s BMW 335 started having massive problems right about the time the warranty expired. Meanwhile I drove my Honda to 175,000 miles with never a single problem except the A/C broke once. I only replaced it with a new Honda because in wanted the new model year features.
    - foepys 6y ago
      Another anecdote is that two friends of mine routinely buy 10 y/o old VWs and drive them until they die at 20 years or older. One put 400,000km on his last VW Bora Diesel that in his words could've run another 400,000km if the interior weren't worn down so much. No rust anywhere except the exhaust he said which surprised me as well. (High) performance cars break faster because they are pushing the limits of what's possible and have way more components.
      - jacobush 6y ago
        Good way to avoid the cars that died or got rust issues the first 10 years.
      - rasz 6y ago
        This is survivorship bias. At 10 years old your friends are picking among the best serviced and cared for examples.
  - mhensley 6y ago
    Consumer Reports and JD Power both have annual reliability /quality rankings. There is fair criticism of the two orgs and their methodology, but it seems to be the only industry wide data readily available. https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2019/11/14/consumer-reports-auto-reliability-study-2020-vehicles/2578463001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2019/11/14/consume... https://thenextweb.com/shift/2020/06/25/study-tesla-likely-us-worst-carmaker-reliability-build-quality-paint-battery/ https://thenextweb.com/shift/2020/06/25/study-tesla-likely-u...
  - agumonkey 6y ago
    since when ? I believe they used to be above average but got lazy due to brand recognition and profit-based options strategies
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- leetcrew 6y ago
  I have found german cars to be quite reliable. my family has almost exclusively owned german cars as long as I've been alive (bmw, mercedes, vw). most of them were owned for 7-10 years and had no major mechanical issues. we take care of our cars a little better than the average person though, hand-washing them often, regularly cleaning out biological debris from inside the engine bay and door sills, etc. the only outlier was a 2001 3 series that started having a lot of issues late in its life. to be fair, it was twelve years old at that point. by far the worst vehicle was a mid '00s LR3. that thing had recurring electrical issues from day one, a leaky roof, and several body panels that simply fell off. we got rid of it after only four years IIRC and it looked like it had been through a war. I'm not assuming anything about your personal level of care, but a lot of people aren't aware of all the little things you can do to keep a car running longer. I'm not surprised that they encounter reliability issues with these complex vehicles.
  - pessimizer 6y ago
    The question isn't whether you think they're fine if one takes care of them well, the question is their reliability as compared to other manufacturers, all other things (like personal level of care) held equal.
    - leetcrew 6y ago
      if you read further back up the thread, the original topic was quality. I would consider a vehicle that's pleasant to drive and capable of lasting a long time with a little extra care to be a high quality vehicle. our landrover, despite being pretty expensive new, was not a quality vehicle. it had numerous issues despite being well cared for. in any case, I just thought it might be useful information to add to the thread. consumer reports does a pretty good job quantifying the reliability of a vehicle for a typical owner. it's a little harder to tease apart the difference between inherently unreliable vehicles and ones that just need a little extra attention.
- asdff 6y ago
  If you get one before they added too much electronic bullshit they are great cars. The E30 series is a tank and can go probably a half million miles if you did routine maintenance.
optimiz3 6y ago
Statistically significant [Citation Needed]
rcMgD2BwE72F 6y ago
Do they? https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey...
- stetrain 6y ago
  https://electrek.co/2020/06/16/tesla-model-y-quality-issues/ https://electrek.co/2020/06/16/tesla-model-y-quality-issues/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-model-y-ev-safety-quality-issues-problems/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-model-y-ev-safety-qual... https://insideevs.com/features/437193/video-tesla-model-y-quality-issues-continue/ https://insideevs.com/features/437193/video-tesla-model-y-qu... https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/returned-my-today.208766/#post-5045305 https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/returned-my-today.20... https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/returned-within-7-days.197196/#post-4776858 https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/returned-within-7-da... Feel free to search reddit or Tesla forums for "rejected delivery" and "returned" as well.
toomuchtodo 6y ago
Have you owned a Mercedes or BMW? EDIT: Have owned both (SLK350 and M5, respectively). Would not buy again. Currently own only Teslas (S, X, Y).
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- matham 6y ago
  I don't. Please elaborate.
  - kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
    They are a general nightmare to own after the first year or so. They encounter hardware issues way more frequently compared to Japanese cars. For a typical Japanese car like Honda / Toyota / Mazda, you typically don't need to do anything other than regular maintenance (oil changes, tire rotations, break and tire replacements) for the first 5–6 years or 60000 miles. These are simple enough to be done very easily at any regular mechanic. Many Japanese cars run 100K+ miles without encountering any issue. BMWs, otoh, you would be lucky if you went a few years without encountering any mechanical issue. And when you do, you are more likely to have to take it to their dealership, and my friends' experience of visiting those hasn't been great either.
  - Scarbutt 6y ago
    They are not as high quality as Toyota or Honda. Not that Tesla is any better.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - medium_burrito 6y ago
    As the saying goes "America designs for lowest cost, Germans design for high performance and Japanese design for high reliability and ease of maintenance". I heard this in the context of someone marveling at the layout in an engine bay of a 80s Toyota, but it also applies to a friend's brother who restores boomboxes. This gentleman was describing how a single motor turned a bunch of different things, depending on which switch was pressed, and how elegant and simple the design was.
nickik 6y ago
That is just wrong. Tesla might have some QA issues, but claiming its easy to grow 40-50% a year just because you have some QA issues is one of the single dumbest things I have ever heard. And while they have some issue, the quality in terms of the actual core component of the cars is superior to what anybody else has. Not to mention things like software that absolutely suck ass on my cars. Just look at all the recent issues other companies had with quality of these things. But of course those are not in the media even 1/100 as much so people who only look for reasons to disparage Tesla find easy ammunition.

It's easy to move quickly when you do not care for quality control.

by ProAm 6y ago

It's easy to move quickly when you do not care for quality control.

Giorgi 6y ago

German built cars are notorious for shitty quality, I own one. They suck.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
cpursley 6y ago
You're getting downvoted but German vehicles are pretty consistently rated as unreliable by major publications and research groups. (Don't get me wrong, the BMW M line is pretty sweet)
- nottorp 6y ago
  Anecdote 1: I know someone who returned a Mercedes E-Klasse at the end of the lease because the electronics kept failing and a replacement sensor was 3000 a pop out of warranty. Anecdote 2: I drove a friend's brand new Tesla and one of the rear doors totally didn't line up with the car's body. So I'd say, German cars are a myth but Tesla's quality control sucks as well.
  - artificial 6y ago
    Ancedote: I've usually seen foggy lights (front or rear) with the Teslas. From what I've heard it's improved. They're neat cars, just sucks having quality issues with any high end product.
- cromwellian 6y ago
  They’re reliable until they hit their warranty and then everything breaks. My wife’s BMW 335 started having massive problems right about the time the warranty expired. Meanwhile I drove my Honda to 175,000 miles with never a single problem except the A/C broke once. I only replaced it with a new Honda because in wanted the new model year features.
  - foepys 6y ago
    Another anecdote is that two friends of mine routinely buy 10 y/o old VWs and drive them until they die at 20 years or older. One put 400,000km on his last VW Bora Diesel that in his words could've run another 400,000km if the interior weren't worn down so much. No rust anywhere except the exhaust he said which surprised me as well. (High) performance cars break faster because they are pushing the limits of what's possible and have way more components.
    - jacobush 6y ago
      Good way to avoid the cars that died or got rust issues the first 10 years.
    - rasz 6y ago
      This is survivorship bias. At 10 years old your friends are picking among the best serviced and cared for examples.
- mhensley 6y ago
  Consumer Reports and JD Power both have annual reliability /quality rankings. There is fair criticism of the two orgs and their methodology, but it seems to be the only industry wide data readily available. https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2019/11/14/consumer-reports-auto-reliability-study-2020-vehicles/2578463001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2019/11/14/consume... https://thenextweb.com/shift/2020/06/25/study-tesla-likely-us-worst-carmaker-reliability-build-quality-paint-battery/ https://thenextweb.com/shift/2020/06/25/study-tesla-likely-u...
- agumonkey 6y ago
  since when ? I believe they used to be above average but got lazy due to brand recognition and profit-based options strategies
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
leetcrew 6y ago
I have found german cars to be quite reliable. my family has almost exclusively owned german cars as long as I've been alive (bmw, mercedes, vw). most of them were owned for 7-10 years and had no major mechanical issues. we take care of our cars a little better than the average person though, hand-washing them often, regularly cleaning out biological debris from inside the engine bay and door sills, etc. the only outlier was a 2001 3 series that started having a lot of issues late in its life. to be fair, it was twelve years old at that point. by far the worst vehicle was a mid '00s LR3. that thing had recurring electrical issues from day one, a leaky roof, and several body panels that simply fell off. we got rid of it after only four years IIRC and it looked like it had been through a war. I'm not assuming anything about your personal level of care, but a lot of people aren't aware of all the little things you can do to keep a car running longer. I'm not surprised that they encounter reliability issues with these complex vehicles.
- pessimizer 6y ago
  The question isn't whether you think they're fine if one takes care of them well, the question is their reliability as compared to other manufacturers, all other things (like personal level of care) held equal.
  - leetcrew 6y ago
    if you read further back up the thread, the original topic was quality. I would consider a vehicle that's pleasant to drive and capable of lasting a long time with a little extra care to be a high quality vehicle. our landrover, despite being pretty expensive new, was not a quality vehicle. it had numerous issues despite being well cared for. in any case, I just thought it might be useful information to add to the thread. consumer reports does a pretty good job quantifying the reliability of a vehicle for a typical owner. it's a little harder to tease apart the difference between inherently unreliable vehicles and ones that just need a little extra attention.
asdff 6y ago
If you get one before they added too much electronic bullshit they are great cars. The E30 series is a tank and can go probably a half million miles if you did routine maintenance.

optimiz3 6y ago

Statistically significant [Citation Needed]

rcMgD2BwE72F 6y ago

Do they? https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey...

stetrain 6y ago
https://electrek.co/2020/06/16/tesla-model-y-quality-issues/ https://electrek.co/2020/06/16/tesla-model-y-quality-issues/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-model-y-ev-safety-quality-issues-problems/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-model-y-ev-safety-qual... https://insideevs.com/features/437193/video-tesla-model-y-quality-issues-continue/ https://insideevs.com/features/437193/video-tesla-model-y-qu... https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/returned-my-today.208766/#post-5045305 https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/returned-my-today.20... https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/returned-within-7-days.197196/#post-4776858 https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/returned-within-7-da... Feel free to search reddit or Tesla forums for "rejected delivery" and "returned" as well.

toomuchtodo 6y ago

Have you owned a Mercedes or BMW? EDIT: Have owned both (SLK350 and M5, respectively). Would not buy again. Currently own only Teslas (S, X, Y).

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
matham 6y ago
I don't. Please elaborate.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
  They are a general nightmare to own after the first year or so. They encounter hardware issues way more frequently compared to Japanese cars. For a typical Japanese car like Honda / Toyota / Mazda, you typically don't need to do anything other than regular maintenance (oil changes, tire rotations, break and tire replacements) for the first 5–6 years or 60000 miles. These are simple enough to be done very easily at any regular mechanic. Many Japanese cars run 100K+ miles without encountering any issue. BMWs, otoh, you would be lucky if you went a few years without encountering any mechanical issue. And when you do, you are more likely to have to take it to their dealership, and my friends' experience of visiting those hasn't been great either.
- Scarbutt 6y ago
  They are not as high quality as Toyota or Honda. Not that Tesla is any better.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- medium_burrito 6y ago
  As the saying goes "America designs for lowest cost, Germans design for high performance and Japanese design for high reliability and ease of maintenance". I heard this in the context of someone marveling at the layout in an engine bay of a 80s Toyota, but it also applies to a friend's brother who restores boomboxes. This gentleman was describing how a single motor turned a bunch of different things, depending on which switch was pressed, and how elegant and simple the design was.

nickik 6y ago

That is just wrong. Tesla might have some QA issues, but claiming its easy to grow 40-50% a year just because you have some QA issues is one of the single dumbest things I have ever heard. And while they have some issue, the quality in terms of the actual core component of the cars is superior to what anybody else has. Not to mention things like software that absolutely suck ass on my cars. Just look at all the recent issues other companies had with quality of these things. But of course those are not in the media even 1/100 as much so people who only look for reasons to disparage Tesla find easy ammunition.