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I'm a happy fellow of the FSFE (http://fsfe.org/ http://fsfe.org/), the European pendant to the FSF. Sometimes we also discuss FSF campaigns, and usually agree

by vog 16y ago

I'm a happy fellow of the FSFE (http://fsfe.org/ http://fsfe.org/), the European pendant to the FSF. Sometimes we also discuss FSF campaigns, and usually agree that those would almost certainly be counter-productive here in Europe, especially things like the "Windows 7 sins". However, we always thought: Well, the USA have a different culture, so maybe this kind of campaign is needed there, and probably our style of campaign would not work there. (With "our style" I especially mean: not to exaggerate, and to prefer positive campaigns over negative campaigns.) It is interesting to see that our objections seem to be also valid within the USA, too. Maybe it's time for some people to join the FSF and to encourage them to learn from their European branch.

treeface 16y ago
Perhaps this a silly question, but why don't you guys expand your campaigns to the US? Why the geographic limitation?
- vog 16y ago
  Almost all campaigns need a local part that is absolutely vital for its success. For instance, if you want to address a German party, your chances are much better if you do that as a German citizen. Want to write a letter to a French ministry? Better find some French guys to do that. The closer your are to the target, the more effective you are. Also in the USA, what do you think will impress people more? Criticism by your own citizens, or criticism by some people far, far away? There's an old saw which seems to apply perfectly here: Think global, act local.
- cybercrow 16y ago
  As vog already explained, in many cases it is good to have people locally availabe. But FSFE does world wide campaigns too. One example would be the Document Freedom Day: documentfreedom.org
jdp23 16y ago
Interesting! Exaggeration often does sell well in the US, but I don't think it's required. And negativity is very much in fashion here (alas) but positivity can be even more successful. So my guess is that your campaigns would work well here too. Are Americans allowed to join the FSFE?
- vog 16y ago
  Feel free to do so. As far as I know, the FSFE fellowship is open to anyone: https://fellowship.fsfe.org/login/join.php https://fellowship.fsfe.org/login/join.php However, engaging in FSFE campaigns might become a difficult undertaking if you can't attend any of the local meetings. (Of course there are mailing lists, but those are, well, just mailing lists.) So for a US citizen, I think it would be more effective to join the FSF instead, and to stay in contact with the FSFE from there. Those connections should already exist and probably just need to be pushed forward.
  - cybercrow 16y ago
    Hi all! I'm a Fellow of FSFE, too. Let me add that, as vog already mentioned, the Fellowship is open for everyone. I was told that FSFE already has some Fellows from the US. So you are not alone if you join FSFE. :-) Of course some of the really great thinks of FSFE are the local Fellowship meetings, etc. which is more easy to organise with more Fellows around. But I would love to see Fellowship meetings in the US (usally 2-3 Fellows are already enough if you invite "non-Fellows" too). But all this is not mandatory to join FSFE. There are als FSF members at Europe without any FSF or LibrePlanet meetings. So the other way around would be perfectly OK too. So, if you like FSFE than join us! :-)
hvs 16y ago
Exaggeration and negative campaigns can work in the U.S., but as soon as "hyperbole" starts sounding like "crazy conspiracy theory" Americans tend to shut down. For the majority of Americans (contrary to the loudest voices in the political sphere), being outside of the "mainstream" is the kiss of death. I say all of that as a libertarian member of the FSF who disagrees with the way that many of the FSF's campaigns are run.
- kmfrk 16y ago
  That doesn't stop some big organizations from doing it, though. Just look at PETA.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - hugh3 16y ago
    And it works just fine for PETA, assuming the purpose of PETA is raising money for PETA rather than preventing cruelty to animals. If PETA were sane like the ASPCA then there'd be no need for PETA to even exist.
StavrosK 16y ago
It's interesting how advertising cultures are different. In Greece, for example, it is unthinkable for an ad to acknowledge the competition, especially in a negative light. It was a rather big shock for me when I saw a US ad for a Ford car (for example) saying "our fuel consumption is X lower than the Prius". This would never happen in Greece. At most, they would say "our fuel consumption is X lower than the nearest competitor".
- varaon 16y ago
  (Canadian here, but the ads are similar and we get lots of US channels.) >At most, they would say "our fuel consumption is X lower than the nearest competitor". This is what usually happens. It's only when a competitor is so well-regarded that people wouldn't even consider the company running the ad that they mention names. For example, fuel econonmy and the Prius and almost inseparable in people's minds thanks to good marketing, to the point that someone shopping for an efficient car would probably not even consider Ford unless you challenged their assumptions with a surprising fact (that the Ford had better MPG than the Prius). It's like the "Droid does" ads (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e52TSXwj774 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e52TSXwj774) - the iPhone was so dominant that they basically had to say, "You think that Apple/Toyota is the best in this field? Well guess what, we're better!"
  - fluidcruft 16y ago
    In the prius example, my hunch is that when doing tests the the generic terms (things like "nearest competitor") failed to elicit comparisions with the prius. Prius already has a not-a-regular-car cache so my guess is they had to use prius as the generic term. Or they were specifically targeting people that were already seriously considering the prius. Prius may be on the way to becoming another kleenex.
- frossie 16y ago
  In Greece, for example, it is unthinkable for an ad to acknowledge the competition, Many countries have advertising standards that, if not outright prohibit negative advertising, at least set the bar very high as to what can be said and what level of supporting evidence needs to be provided. In the US, the protections of free speech convolved with the fact that corporations seem to enjoy the same "natural rights" as individuals, means that you can say pretty much anything in an ad.

by vog 16y ago

treeface 16y ago

Perhaps this a silly question, but why don't you guys expand your campaigns to the US? Why the geographic limitation?

vog 16y ago
Almost all campaigns need a local part that is absolutely vital for its success. For instance, if you want to address a German party, your chances are much better if you do that as a German citizen. Want to write a letter to a French ministry? Better find some French guys to do that. The closer your are to the target, the more effective you are. Also in the USA, what do you think will impress people more? Criticism by your own citizens, or criticism by some people far, far away? There's an old saw which seems to apply perfectly here: Think global, act local.
cybercrow 16y ago
As vog already explained, in many cases it is good to have people locally availabe. But FSFE does world wide campaigns too. One example would be the Document Freedom Day: documentfreedom.org

jdp23 16y ago

Interesting! Exaggeration often does sell well in the US, but I don't think it's required. And negativity is very much in fashion here (alas) but positivity can be even more successful. So my guess is that your campaigns would work well here too. Are Americans allowed to join the FSFE?

vog 16y ago
Feel free to do so. As far as I know, the FSFE fellowship is open to anyone: https://fellowship.fsfe.org/login/join.php https://fellowship.fsfe.org/login/join.php However, engaging in FSFE campaigns might become a difficult undertaking if you can't attend any of the local meetings. (Of course there are mailing lists, but those are, well, just mailing lists.) So for a US citizen, I think it would be more effective to join the FSF instead, and to stay in contact with the FSFE from there. Those connections should already exist and probably just need to be pushed forward.
- cybercrow 16y ago
  Hi all! I'm a Fellow of FSFE, too. Let me add that, as vog already mentioned, the Fellowship is open for everyone. I was told that FSFE already has some Fellows from the US. So you are not alone if you join FSFE. :-) Of course some of the really great thinks of FSFE are the local Fellowship meetings, etc. which is more easy to organise with more Fellows around. But I would love to see Fellowship meetings in the US (usally 2-3 Fellows are already enough if you invite "non-Fellows" too). But all this is not mandatory to join FSFE. There are als FSF members at Europe without any FSF or LibrePlanet meetings. So the other way around would be perfectly OK too. So, if you like FSFE than join us! :-)

hvs 16y ago

Exaggeration and negative campaigns can work in the U.S., but as soon as "hyperbole" starts sounding like "crazy conspiracy theory" Americans tend to shut down. For the majority of Americans (contrary to the loudest voices in the political sphere), being outside of the "mainstream" is the kiss of death. I say all of that as a libertarian member of the FSF who disagrees with the way that many of the FSF's campaigns are run.

kmfrk 16y ago
That doesn't stop some big organizations from doing it, though. Just look at PETA.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- hugh3 16y ago
  And it works just fine for PETA, assuming the purpose of PETA is raising money for PETA rather than preventing cruelty to animals. If PETA were sane like the ASPCA then there'd be no need for PETA to even exist.

StavrosK 16y ago

It's interesting how advertising cultures are different. In Greece, for example, it is unthinkable for an ad to acknowledge the competition, especially in a negative light. It was a rather big shock for me when I saw a US ad for a Ford car (for example) saying "our fuel consumption is X lower than the Prius". This would never happen in Greece. At most, they would say "our fuel consumption is X lower than the nearest competitor".

varaon 16y ago
(Canadian here, but the ads are similar and we get lots of US channels.) >At most, they would say "our fuel consumption is X lower than the nearest competitor". This is what usually happens. It's only when a competitor is so well-regarded that people wouldn't even consider the company running the ad that they mention names. For example, fuel econonmy and the Prius and almost inseparable in people's minds thanks to good marketing, to the point that someone shopping for an efficient car would probably not even consider Ford unless you challenged their assumptions with a surprising fact (that the Ford had better MPG than the Prius). It's like the "Droid does" ads (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e52TSXwj774 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e52TSXwj774) - the iPhone was so dominant that they basically had to say, "You think that Apple/Toyota is the best in this field? Well guess what, we're better!"
- fluidcruft 16y ago
  In the prius example, my hunch is that when doing tests the the generic terms (things like "nearest competitor") failed to elicit comparisions with the prius. Prius already has a not-a-regular-car cache so my guess is they had to use prius as the generic term. Or they were specifically targeting people that were already seriously considering the prius. Prius may be on the way to becoming another kleenex.
frossie 16y ago
In Greece, for example, it is unthinkable for an ad to acknowledge the competition, Many countries have advertising standards that, if not outright prohibit negative advertising, at least set the bar very high as to what can be said and what level of supporting evidence needs to be provided. In the US, the protections of free speech convolved with the fact that corporations seem to enjoy the same "natural rights" as individuals, means that you can say pretty much anything in an ad.