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> 1) Installing software directly from the developer --along with being able to develop yourself-- is not only perfectly fine, it's what makes personal computin

by qayxc 6y ago

> 1) Installing software directly from the developer --along with being able to develop yourself-- is not only perfectly fine, it's what makes personal computing great. Nobody's stopping you from that, not even SmartScreen. The issue is that close to 100% of all malware is installed by users and the critique has been that Microsoft is offering neither sufficient protection nor a safe(r) alternative. SmartScreen and Windows Store - whatever your personal opinion about those might be - are completely optional ways to address this critique. > 2) Package management is an over-engineered and inflexible solution that creates more problems than it solves. All major *nix-based operating systems and their distributions seem to disagree with you on that; Most programming languages included. > 3) Installers aren't as bad as package managers but are still overly complex and cause problems. Applications should be single files or directories that can be moved or copied anywhere you want. Numerous OSs had applications work this way by convention and it is also how AppImage works. And that solves the security and trust issues how? > 4) Application-level security should be applied by default and at the OS level. Mobile OSs got this (mostly) right. Oh yeah, especially mobile OSes where every app wants full access to everything or just won't install/run. Pop-ups are just as bad because now you just train users to simply ignore them. There is no silver bullet here, and SmartScreen isn't some "evil gatekeeper" that just exists to thwart independent software development. It's just an imperfect tool to address security and trust issues with random software packages downloaded from the internet.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
> All major nix-based operating systems and their distributions seem to disagree with you on that; Most programming languages included. Yes, and I still think I'm right and they are wrong. You're welcome to disagree, but I personally wouldn't hold up the distant 3rd place in desktop computing as evidence against my argument. > Oh yeah, especially mobile OSes where every app wants full access to everything or just won't install/run. Like I said, only mostly correct. > Pop-ups are just as bad because now you just train users to simply ignore them. Agreed, so don't do popups. > There is no silver bullet here, and SmartScreen isn't some "evil gatekeeper" that just exists to thwart independent software development. It's just an imperfect tool to address security and trust issues with random software packages downloaded from the internet. I never said otherwise. I just think we can do better than SmartScreen.
- boogies 6y ago
  > Yes, and I still think I'm right and they are wrong. You're welcome to disagree, but I personally wouldn't hold up the distant 3rd place in desktop computing as evidence against my argument. FWIW, Windows also has a package “manager”, although it didn’t manage installed packages last I checked (despite being basically a copy-paste of WinGet IIRC). But I see no reason to hold up what AFAIK is the shrinking 3rd place in computing (behind cloud and mobile) as evidence. Servers and phones install software too.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    And Linux has AppImage. However, it is the common convention that is important here and for decades Windows convention has been application installers. > But I see no reason to hold up what AFAIK is the shrinking 3rd place in computing (behind cloud and mobile) as evidence. Servers and phones install software too. Ok, let's look at mobile... which uses self contained applications. Huh. How about server... where things like VMs and Docker are increasingly popular because they allow self-contained services. Hell, even developers use Docker to create self-contained build environments. Regardless, I don't think what servers do is very applicable to how desktops should work. Mobile is much more applicable because they are personal devices, like desktops, but they are still a distinct entity with different use cases.

by qayxc 6y ago

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago

> All major nix-based operating systems and their distributions seem to disagree with you on that; Most programming languages included. Yes, and I still think I'm right and they are wrong. You're welcome to disagree, but I personally wouldn't hold up the distant 3rd place in desktop computing as evidence against my argument. > Oh yeah, especially mobile OSes where every app wants full access to everything or just won't install/run. Like I said, only mostly correct. > Pop-ups are just as bad because now you just train users to simply ignore them. Agreed, so don't do popups. > There is no silver bullet here, and SmartScreen isn't some "evil gatekeeper" that just exists to thwart independent software development. It's just an imperfect tool to address security and trust issues with random software packages downloaded from the internet. I never said otherwise. I just think we can do better than SmartScreen.

boogies 6y ago
> Yes, and I still think I'm right and they are wrong. You're welcome to disagree, but I personally wouldn't hold up the distant 3rd place in desktop computing as evidence against my argument. FWIW, Windows also has a package “manager”, although it didn’t manage installed packages last I checked (despite being basically a copy-paste of WinGet IIRC). But I see no reason to hold up what AFAIK is the shrinking 3rd place in computing (behind cloud and mobile) as evidence. Servers and phones install software too.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  And Linux has AppImage. However, it is the common convention that is important here and for decades Windows convention has been application installers. > But I see no reason to hold up what AFAIK is the shrinking 3rd place in computing (behind cloud and mobile) as evidence. Servers and phones install software too. Ok, let's look at mobile... which uses self contained applications. Huh. How about server... where things like VMs and Docker are increasingly popular because they allow self-contained services. Hell, even developers use Docker to create self-contained build environments. Regardless, I don't think what servers do is very applicable to how desktops should work. Mobile is much more applicable because they are personal devices, like desktops, but they are still a distinct entity with different use cases.