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Waterwheels were more than competitive before coal powered steam engines took over. Still, it is a fascinating question: why wasn’t the Netherlands a fast-follo

Waterwheels were more than competitive before coal powered steam engines took over. Still, it is a fascinating question: why wasn’t the Netherlands a fast-follower in the Industrial Revolution?

vanderZwan 6y ago
> Waterwheels were more than competitive before coal powered steam engines took over. True for most of Europe, but this essentially requires height differences, something in fairly short supply in the Netherlands ;) (see also the two articles I linked in the other comment)
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  I had thought coal would be in fairly short supply as well, but apparently there are corners of the country more than a few meters above sea level: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Limburg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Limburg > "The demand for coal had grown explosively as a result of increased industrialization and urban expansion, but the national governments regarded any form of interference in the extraction and sale of this fuel as unnecessary. Thus it came about that the first concessions for the extraction of coal in South Limburg were granted without hesitation to foreign firms, although most of the coal consumed in the Netherlands was imported from Germany, and Dutch investors preferred to invest their capital in foreign countries, such as in Russian government loans, American railways, and Hungarian waterworks."
  - iguy 6y ago
    If mining in a big way didn't happen until the 1870s, maybe that implied it was difficult, for the tools of earlier times? Too deep?
- sradman 6y ago
  I was specifically responding to the following claim that the Netherlands: > ...had an early lead on the UK in terms of industrialization with our windmills, but then they figured out how to use coalpower and took over The point, that I was unsuccessful in making clearly, was that the difference between Dutch windmills and English waterwheels was a wash (no pun intended) at the critical early part of the First Industrial Revolution. The first link you mention supports this view. In my opinion, the ecosystem built around global industrialized cotton was the key factor driving England's Industrial Revolution, but I understand that many attribute the success to the coal powered steam engine.
  - iguy 6y ago
    > the difference between Dutch windmills and English waterwheels was a wash (no pun intended) at the critical early part of the First Industrial Revolution Would be interesting to see numbers on this. I would have guessed there was substantially more total power from water in England (just before steam) than the wind in NL, but could be wrong. It may depend a lot on what year you pick for the comparison. And whether you include all the isolated windmills pumping water to keep farmland dry, or only the ones doing work that was also done by water-mills. Coal and steam weren't the first chapter, but are hard to overestimate once they did arrive, IMO.
  - vanderZwan 6y ago
    Ah, thank you for clarifying! Yes, I see your point now. At the same time, the second link references the claim that it has been argued that the Zaanstreek was the first industrialized region in the world, starting a few decades before the period that we usually consider the First Industrial Revolution (which is also what I quoted in the other comment). I'm no expert though, and I doubt it's a universally accepted view.

Waterwheels were more than competitive before coal powered steam engines took over. Still, it is a fascinating question: why wasn’t the Netherlands a fast-follower in the Industrial Revolution?

vanderZwan 6y ago

> Waterwheels were more than competitive before coal powered steam engines took over. True for most of Europe, but this essentially requires height differences, something in fairly short supply in the Netherlands ;) (see also the two articles I linked in the other comment)

082349872349872 6y ago
I had thought coal would be in fairly short supply as well, but apparently there are corners of the country more than a few meters above sea level: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Limburg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Limburg > "The demand for coal had grown explosively as a result of increased industrialization and urban expansion, but the national governments regarded any form of interference in the extraction and sale of this fuel as unnecessary. Thus it came about that the first concessions for the extraction of coal in South Limburg were granted without hesitation to foreign firms, although most of the coal consumed in the Netherlands was imported from Germany, and Dutch investors preferred to invest their capital in foreign countries, such as in Russian government loans, American railways, and Hungarian waterworks."
- iguy 6y ago
  If mining in a big way didn't happen until the 1870s, maybe that implied it was difficult, for the tools of earlier times? Too deep?
sradman 6y ago
I was specifically responding to the following claim that the Netherlands: > ...had an early lead on the UK in terms of industrialization with our windmills, but then they figured out how to use coalpower and took over The point, that I was unsuccessful in making clearly, was that the difference between Dutch windmills and English waterwheels was a wash (no pun intended) at the critical early part of the First Industrial Revolution. The first link you mention supports this view. In my opinion, the ecosystem built around global industrialized cotton was the key factor driving England's Industrial Revolution, but I understand that many attribute the success to the coal powered steam engine.
- iguy 6y ago
  > the difference between Dutch windmills and English waterwheels was a wash (no pun intended) at the critical early part of the First Industrial Revolution Would be interesting to see numbers on this. I would have guessed there was substantially more total power from water in England (just before steam) than the wind in NL, but could be wrong. It may depend a lot on what year you pick for the comparison. And whether you include all the isolated windmills pumping water to keep farmland dry, or only the ones doing work that was also done by water-mills. Coal and steam weren't the first chapter, but are hard to overestimate once they did arrive, IMO.
- vanderZwan 6y ago
  Ah, thank you for clarifying! Yes, I see your point now. At the same time, the second link references the claim that it has been argued that the Zaanstreek was the first industrialized region in the world, starting a few decades before the period that we usually consider the First Industrial Revolution (which is also what I quoted in the other comment). I'm no expert though, and I doubt it's a universally accepted view.