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> Imagine learning that the growth exactly resembles of actions of WWII Nazis against Jews, only now by Zionist Jews against Palestinians. If you learn that an

> Imagine learning that the growth exactly resembles of actions of WWII Nazis against Jews, only now by Zionist Jews against Palestinians. If you learn that anywhere, I think you're talking to antisemites. It's really not the same, it's not similar beyond "a state does stuff, Nazi Germany was a state, Israel is a state, so it's the same", but that's not a useful comparison. > If you're German, you might feel especially emotional about it, given the shared history. I'm German, I don't feel especially emotional about it, and I often do feel like that the obsession with Israel is more about "see, the Jews are doing it too, we're not so bad" and less about "what a terrible thing". Exactly because most people are very upset about Israel doing stuff and completely ignore far worse things being done by others. As for Turkey: you don't need to go back to the Armenian Genocide. Turkey still occupies parts of Cyprus, is de-facto annexing parts of Syria and is working closely with what has been formerly known as ISIS, currently sending them to Azerbaijan to fight against Armenia. The point is: if a vendor would say "we don't sell to Israel because of ethics" but sells to countries that are ethically far worse, their problem obviously isn't ethical in nature. Their problem would be Israel. Nevertheless, FinFisher didn't, so it's hypothetical. They probably didn't sell to Israel either, because Israel has no need to buy, having a strong security industry with lots of vendors for offensive tools.

aesh2Xa1 6y ago
> If you learn that anywhere, I think you're talking to antisemites I'm sure I've spoken to anti-semites in my life, but your accusation is merely begging the question. I learned the history largely from a book titled "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palestine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Pale... You need not support the actions political party of the Zionists to support Israel or the Jewish people the same that you need not support the actions of any other political party, say the far-right of the United States, in order to support the country or its people. And you needn't publicly enumerate your disgust for all atrocities by all peoples in order to denounce the single action of a single people. Anyway, I think you're right about feeling suspicion over "see, they did it, too." I won't defend anti-semites for being anti-semitic, and I won't condemn all anti-zionists as anti-semites. I think this is where our differences on the matter arises.
- luckylion 6y ago
  I haven't read that book, but I assume that it does not actually compare the holocaust with the Arab-Israeli conflict, because that would be ludicrous. The Arabs attacked Israel with the intent of destruction (and genocide, most plausibly) and lost the war. One consequence was the mass exodus of Arabs who, correctly or not, assumed the victorious Israelis wouldn't treat them kindly. I'm sure plenty of terrible things happened during those wars, but to say they are the same or similar to the holocaust can only be done when you don't know the history. A hint for starters: the Jews did not invade Germany with the intent to destroy it. > And you needn't publicly enumerate your disgust for all atrocities by all peoples in order to denounce the single action of a single people. Your credibility would be much better if you did though. If the police completely ignored crimes committed by white people and vigorously enforced the law against black people, wouldn't you question their motives?
  - aesh2Xa1 6y ago
    For clarification, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a more narrow view of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Exiled Palestinians were unwelcome to neighboring Arab states. I think you should read the book because your assumption is incorrect about its content. This is cheeky of me, but... A hint for starters: the Zionists did invade Palestine with the intent to destroy it. The Zionist movement in Israel did not respect the partitioning of Palestine set up by UN Resolution 181. Zionists committed mass murder against the Palestinians even outside of typical warfare — there were significant civilian casualties. There is no need to equivocate the criticism that "what Zionists are doing to Palestinians is similar to what Nazis did to Jews" to a very different claim that "the Holocaust and the Nakba are wholly the same." We are horrified that Israel would commit ethnic cleansing against another group of people. It is especially horrific given they did so immediately after having been dealt the same atrocity at the hand of Nazis. You can narrowly criticize Israel for these historical and present-day actions, and you gain credibility by standing firmly on that point. Because my response seems to have gained some traction, I will offer you a couple more sources. I don't require or expect you to purchase and read the aforementioned book, but I hope you will look over the following: [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus [2] https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/5/23/the-nakba-did-not-start-or-end-in-1948 https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/5/23/the-nakba-did-n...

aesh2Xa1 6y ago

> If you learn that anywhere, I think you're talking to antisemites I'm sure I've spoken to anti-semites in my life, but your accusation is merely begging the question. I learned the history largely from a book titled "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palestine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Pale... You need not support the actions political party of the Zionists to support Israel or the Jewish people the same that you need not support the actions of any other political party, say the far-right of the United States, in order to support the country or its people. And you needn't publicly enumerate your disgust for all atrocities by all peoples in order to denounce the single action of a single people. Anyway, I think you're right about feeling suspicion over "see, they did it, too." I won't defend anti-semites for being anti-semitic, and I won't condemn all anti-zionists as anti-semites. I think this is where our differences on the matter arises.

luckylion 6y ago
I haven't read that book, but I assume that it does not actually compare the holocaust with the Arab-Israeli conflict, because that would be ludicrous. The Arabs attacked Israel with the intent of destruction (and genocide, most plausibly) and lost the war. One consequence was the mass exodus of Arabs who, correctly or not, assumed the victorious Israelis wouldn't treat them kindly. I'm sure plenty of terrible things happened during those wars, but to say they are the same or similar to the holocaust can only be done when you don't know the history. A hint for starters: the Jews did not invade Germany with the intent to destroy it. > And you needn't publicly enumerate your disgust for all atrocities by all peoples in order to denounce the single action of a single people. Your credibility would be much better if you did though. If the police completely ignored crimes committed by white people and vigorously enforced the law against black people, wouldn't you question their motives?
- aesh2Xa1 6y ago
  For clarification, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a more narrow view of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Exiled Palestinians were unwelcome to neighboring Arab states. I think you should read the book because your assumption is incorrect about its content. This is cheeky of me, but... A hint for starters: the Zionists did invade Palestine with the intent to destroy it. The Zionist movement in Israel did not respect the partitioning of Palestine set up by UN Resolution 181. Zionists committed mass murder against the Palestinians even outside of typical warfare — there were significant civilian casualties. There is no need to equivocate the criticism that "what Zionists are doing to Palestinians is similar to what Nazis did to Jews" to a very different claim that "the Holocaust and the Nakba are wholly the same." We are horrified that Israel would commit ethnic cleansing against another group of people. It is especially horrific given they did so immediately after having been dealt the same atrocity at the hand of Nazis. You can narrowly criticize Israel for these historical and present-day actions, and you gain credibility by standing firmly on that point. Because my response seems to have gained some traction, I will offer you a couple more sources. I don't require or expect you to purchase and read the aforementioned book, but I hope you will look over the following: [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus [2] https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/5/23/the-nakba-did-not-start-or-end-in-1948 https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/5/23/the-nakba-did-n...