6 ms·

Israel enjoys a special status through it's relationship (partnership) with Western powers. It also enjoys power. I agree that Turkey's genocide against Armenia

Israel enjoys a special status through it's relationship (partnership) with Western powers. It also enjoys power. I agree that Turkey's genocide against Armenians is evil. It's taken too long to acknowledge that. I'm not too clear on the Saudi Arabia accusation, but I think you're referencing Yemen. Still, imagine you're German and you've received an education, growing up, completely condemning the evil that the WWII Nazis committed against the Jewish people. Imagine that to refute the history of that evil is, in fact, a crime — a crime of speech and ideology. Then imagine learning that the Jewish state made available by partitioning land has grown, considerably, since its initial allocation post-WWII. Imagine learning that the growth exactly resembles of actions of WWII Nazis against Jews, only now by Zionist Jews against Palestinians. Israel has all the makings of a great country. In my mind, it has succeeded thoroughly. Despite my above criticism, I wish it success. I hope it makes humanitarian strides to acknowledge its wrongdoing and make reparations. I'd only point out that its specific actions against Palestinians did happen and continue to happen today and it is an evil. If you're German, you might feel especially emotional about it, given the shared history.

IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago
I don’t have to “imagine” what you’re describing, as I’m in the same situation. But, unlike you, I don’t despair at the (mild) cognitive dissonance you’re describing. The Holocaust, and its uniqueness, are fact. Israel’s behavior towards Palestinians today is reprehensible. These are neither incompatible, nor does the latter diminish the former. We can expect more from Israel than, say, Sudan, because it is a democracy, relatively rich, and part of “the west”. To instead use the Holocaust to place additional burdens on them is cynical. So stop whining about your youth. It was probably terrible, but the Jews weren’t involved in that. And, unlike many of them, you got to survive to adulthood.
- aesh2Xa1 6y ago
  You're challenging a perspective that I don't hold. I want to avoid talking past each other. I think one can appreciate that the FinFisher group has done terrible things and is working against a free, democratic society. I do not really want to defend them, so I think it's important to say that up front. I took aim at the idea that "they must also be anti-semites because they specifically criticized Israel." I do not want the criticism of Israel to be the bar we set for the anti-semitism accusation.
luckylion 6y ago
> Imagine learning that the growth exactly resembles of actions of WWII Nazis against Jews, only now by Zionist Jews against Palestinians. If you learn that anywhere, I think you're talking to antisemites. It's really not the same, it's not similar beyond "a state does stuff, Nazi Germany was a state, Israel is a state, so it's the same", but that's not a useful comparison. > If you're German, you might feel especially emotional about it, given the shared history. I'm German, I don't feel especially emotional about it, and I often do feel like that the obsession with Israel is more about "see, the Jews are doing it too, we're not so bad" and less about "what a terrible thing". Exactly because most people are very upset about Israel doing stuff and completely ignore far worse things being done by others. As for Turkey: you don't need to go back to the Armenian Genocide. Turkey still occupies parts of Cyprus, is de-facto annexing parts of Syria and is working closely with what has been formerly known as ISIS, currently sending them to Azerbaijan to fight against Armenia. The point is: if a vendor would say "we don't sell to Israel because of ethics" but sells to countries that are ethically far worse, their problem obviously isn't ethical in nature. Their problem would be Israel. Nevertheless, FinFisher didn't, so it's hypothetical. They probably didn't sell to Israel either, because Israel has no need to buy, having a strong security industry with lots of vendors for offensive tools.
- aesh2Xa1 6y ago
  > If you learn that anywhere, I think you're talking to antisemites I'm sure I've spoken to anti-semites in my life, but your accusation is merely begging the question. I learned the history largely from a book titled "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palestine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Pale... You need not support the actions political party of the Zionists to support Israel or the Jewish people the same that you need not support the actions of any other political party, say the far-right of the United States, in order to support the country or its people. And you needn't publicly enumerate your disgust for all atrocities by all peoples in order to denounce the single action of a single people. Anyway, I think you're right about feeling suspicion over "see, they did it, too." I won't defend anti-semites for being anti-semitic, and I won't condemn all anti-zionists as anti-semites. I think this is where our differences on the matter arises.

IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago

I don’t have to “imagine” what you’re describing, as I’m in the same situation. But, unlike you, I don’t despair at the (mild) cognitive dissonance you’re describing. The Holocaust, and its uniqueness, are fact. Israel’s behavior towards Palestinians today is reprehensible. These are neither incompatible, nor does the latter diminish the former. We can expect more from Israel than, say, Sudan, because it is a democracy, relatively rich, and part of “the west”. To instead use the Holocaust to place additional burdens on them is cynical. So stop whining about your youth. It was probably terrible, but the Jews weren’t involved in that. And, unlike many of them, you got to survive to adulthood.

aesh2Xa1 6y ago
You're challenging a perspective that I don't hold. I want to avoid talking past each other. I think one can appreciate that the FinFisher group has done terrible things and is working against a free, democratic society. I do not really want to defend them, so I think it's important to say that up front. I took aim at the idea that "they must also be anti-semites because they specifically criticized Israel." I do not want the criticism of Israel to be the bar we set for the anti-semitism accusation.

luckylion 6y ago

> Imagine learning that the growth exactly resembles of actions of WWII Nazis against Jews, only now by Zionist Jews against Palestinians. If you learn that anywhere, I think you're talking to antisemites. It's really not the same, it's not similar beyond "a state does stuff, Nazi Germany was a state, Israel is a state, so it's the same", but that's not a useful comparison. > If you're German, you might feel especially emotional about it, given the shared history. I'm German, I don't feel especially emotional about it, and I often do feel like that the obsession with Israel is more about "see, the Jews are doing it too, we're not so bad" and less about "what a terrible thing". Exactly because most people are very upset about Israel doing stuff and completely ignore far worse things being done by others. As for Turkey: you don't need to go back to the Armenian Genocide. Turkey still occupies parts of Cyprus, is de-facto annexing parts of Syria and is working closely with what has been formerly known as ISIS, currently sending them to Azerbaijan to fight against Armenia. The point is: if a vendor would say "we don't sell to Israel because of ethics" but sells to countries that are ethically far worse, their problem obviously isn't ethical in nature. Their problem would be Israel. Nevertheless, FinFisher didn't, so it's hypothetical. They probably didn't sell to Israel either, because Israel has no need to buy, having a strong security industry with lots of vendors for offensive tools.

aesh2Xa1 6y ago
> If you learn that anywhere, I think you're talking to antisemites I'm sure I've spoken to anti-semites in my life, but your accusation is merely begging the question. I learned the history largely from a book titled "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palestine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Pale... You need not support the actions political party of the Zionists to support Israel or the Jewish people the same that you need not support the actions of any other political party, say the far-right of the United States, in order to support the country or its people. And you needn't publicly enumerate your disgust for all atrocities by all peoples in order to denounce the single action of a single people. Anyway, I think you're right about feeling suspicion over "see, they did it, too." I won't defend anti-semites for being anti-semitic, and I won't condemn all anti-zionists as anti-semites. I think this is where our differences on the matter arises.