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This is a very clever hack, I had no idea that initial meant that the fallback would be used. I am all for clever hacks but more needs to be done when it comes

This is a very clever hack, I had no idea that initial meant that the fallback would be used. I am all for clever hacks but more needs to be done when it comes to explaining to experienced developers and new people exactly how to use CSS variables. It has been a difficult journey and we still have people doing their own weird things with LESS/SASS precompilers and not writing maintainable CSS.

schwartzworld 6y ago
What resources would you recommend to teach either using CSS variables or writing maintainable CSS. I'd love to learn about either of those
- wa1987 6y ago
  https://every-layout.dev/ https://every-layout.dev/ is downright amazing for learning how to write robust layouts
  - chrisweekly 6y ago
    Came here to post same. https://every-layout.dev https://every-layout.dev is a game-changer. The free content is a goldmine, and having spent $100 for the complete set of reated materials (book, component generator, etc) I can say I've gotten easily 10x that value out of it, maybe more. Hands-down the best CSS-related resource I've encountered since starting my career in web dev in 1998 (ie, before CSS was created).
- taf2 6y ago
  https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/Using_CSS_custom_properties https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/Using_CSS_c...
jibbit 6y ago
i'm thinking i don't understand css variables very well
rriepe 6y ago
> explaining to experienced developers and new people exactly how to use CSS variables Don't? They don't work in IE. By the time you've written a fallback you've complicated things just as much as Less/Sass would but without the benefits of those.
- chrismorgan 6y ago
  Please actively seek to not support IE. It’s long-obsolete and needs to die. By supporting it, you help to keep it alive, which makes trouble for all of us. (“Why doesn’t your site work on IE? Their site does!”—and all of a sudden there’s pressure for you to support IE.) If you don’t have any evidence that you need to support it, I strongly recommend deliberately removing support for it, whether that means just not caring if it works or not or actively breaking it (though please implement that as an IE blacklist, not a certain-browsers whitelist). If you do have evidence that you need to support it, push to remove it, even if you can’t remove it just yet. If you can stop supporting IE, it will make your life easier and it will make my life easier.
  - rriepe 6y ago
    If I have even one user on IE I'm going to pick him over you
  - franga2000 6y ago
    I hate IE as much as the next guy, but PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS! s/IE/Firefox/g to see why. Polyfills are available for most of the usual things and they're absolutely trivial to implement. No one is asking you for IE6 support (if they are, ignore them), but IE11 can do most things decently with minimal effort. As long as a browser is receiving mainstream support and the effort isn't too much, you should be at least minimally supporting it.
    - chrismorgan 6y ago
      I’m saying this specifically about a piece of obsolete technology. Firefox is in no way obsolete, so the comparison is entirely inapplicable. Polyfills are available for most things but they’re not trivial, and they have a meaningful cost in two axes: developer effort, and performance. Things like CSS Flex, CSS Grid, SVG, and ECMAScript 6+ functionality can all be made to work in IE (with a few exceptions, like grid auto placement), but only by making things heavier, typically for everyone. Other things that are really nice to be able to depend on like CSS Custom Properties and more recent ECMAScript syntax (e.g. modules) either can’t be used outright, or require much more extensive working around which still restricts what you can do in all the other browsers. Speaking as someone who has had to maintain IE11 support for a couple of things within the last few years, it seriously is a real drain that contributes more code, bugs (not just for the offending browser) and simple complexity than many realise. IE is not receiving mainstream support. The effort is too much. You should either ignore it, or, if people are trying to get support on specific issues in it, strongly consider actively scuppering it. IE is dead. Let it stay dead.

schwartzworld 6y ago

What resources would you recommend to teach either using CSS variables or writing maintainable CSS. I'd love to learn about either of those

wa1987 6y ago
https://every-layout.dev/ https://every-layout.dev/ is downright amazing for learning how to write robust layouts
- chrisweekly 6y ago
  Came here to post same. https://every-layout.dev https://every-layout.dev is a game-changer. The free content is a goldmine, and having spent $100 for the complete set of reated materials (book, component generator, etc) I can say I've gotten easily 10x that value out of it, maybe more. Hands-down the best CSS-related resource I've encountered since starting my career in web dev in 1998 (ie, before CSS was created).
taf2 6y ago
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/Using_CSS_custom_properties https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/Using_CSS_c...

jibbit 6y ago

i'm thinking i don't understand css variables very well

rriepe 6y ago

> explaining to experienced developers and new people exactly how to use CSS variables Don't? They don't work in IE. By the time you've written a fallback you've complicated things just as much as Less/Sass would but without the benefits of those.

chrismorgan 6y ago
Please actively seek to not support IE. It’s long-obsolete and needs to die. By supporting it, you help to keep it alive, which makes trouble for all of us. (“Why doesn’t your site work on IE? Their site does!”—and all of a sudden there’s pressure for you to support IE.) If you don’t have any evidence that you need to support it, I strongly recommend deliberately removing support for it, whether that means just not caring if it works or not or actively breaking it (though please implement that as an IE blacklist, not a certain-browsers whitelist). If you do have evidence that you need to support it, push to remove it, even if you can’t remove it just yet. If you can stop supporting IE, it will make your life easier and it will make my life easier.
- rriepe 6y ago
  If I have even one user on IE I'm going to pick him over you
- franga2000 6y ago
  I hate IE as much as the next guy, but PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS! s/IE/Firefox/g to see why. Polyfills are available for most of the usual things and they're absolutely trivial to implement. No one is asking you for IE6 support (if they are, ignore them), but IE11 can do most things decently with minimal effort. As long as a browser is receiving mainstream support and the effort isn't too much, you should be at least minimally supporting it.
  - chrismorgan 6y ago
    I’m saying this specifically about a piece of obsolete technology. Firefox is in no way obsolete, so the comparison is entirely inapplicable. Polyfills are available for most things but they’re not trivial, and they have a meaningful cost in two axes: developer effort, and performance. Things like CSS Flex, CSS Grid, SVG, and ECMAScript 6+ functionality can all be made to work in IE (with a few exceptions, like grid auto placement), but only by making things heavier, typically for everyone. Other things that are really nice to be able to depend on like CSS Custom Properties and more recent ECMAScript syntax (e.g. modules) either can’t be used outright, or require much more extensive working around which still restricts what you can do in all the other browsers. Speaking as someone who has had to maintain IE11 support for a couple of things within the last few years, it seriously is a real drain that contributes more code, bugs (not just for the offending browser) and simple complexity than many realise. IE is not receiving mainstream support. The effort is too much. You should either ignore it, or, if people are trying to get support on specific issues in it, strongly consider actively scuppering it. IE is dead. Let it stay dead.