13 ms·

The alternative you are proposing is arresting them, right? I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not attacking you or anything. I just want to play this out, be

The alternative you are proposing is arresting them, right? I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not attacking you or anything. I just want to play this out, because if there's a good solution, god knows I'd love to discuss it. Is it constitutional to arrest mentally ill people for being mentally ill? That's a complex question. I don't think homeless advocacy groups have any interest in obstructing homeless people's access to municipally-administered mental health and substance-abuse programs? Sure, they don't want people harassed, but I see no evidence they're actively trying to prevent people from getting treatment.

gamblor956 6y ago
Is it constitutional to arrest mentally ill people for being mentally ill? It's possible to involuntarily commit someone to a mental hospital. That's not an arrest, it's a civil commitment of a medical nature without any criminal implications. Sure, they don't want people harassed, but I see no evidence they're actively trying to prevent people from getting treatment. Homeless advocacy groups recently blocked the construction of a homeless shelter in Lancaster because they didn't like the location. They've blocked multiple attempts by the city to force violently mentally ill homeless individuals from being treated, even though such individuals are a harm to themselves and to others...especially others. More than dozen homeless individuals have been murdered this year by other homeless persons who were prevented from receiving medical treatment by homeless advocacy groups. The problem is that the idiot advocates base their views of "harassment" on academic ivory-tower views of personhood, and don't understand what it means to be mentally ill and homeless. It means to be shitting yourself every day, to be eating food off the streets, to spend your days and nights fighting off rats and cockroaches, and to avoiding drug dealers and persons more ill than yourself, to be lost in haze or to be seeing people and creatures that don't exist. Nobody wants to be mentally ill, and once treated, the individual always prefers sanity. The problem with most mental illnesses that lead to homelessness, especially the schizophrenic family of disorders, is that the disorder itself makes the individual paranoid of treatment, and the homeless advocates focus all of their attention on that refusal instead of actually making the person better. A homeless person that has their mental illness under control can transition to permanent housing and become a functioning member of society again. But in order to do that, you need to let them be treated, even if they don't want the treatment.
- phobosanomaly 6y ago
  First of all, I definitely appreciate the perspective of a Public Defender with experience in this area. I spent a year working as an EMT picking up my fair share of patients on 5150 holds from PD off the street and bringing them to the ER or to the nearest mental health emergency receiving facility. I do agree, this kind of stuff is not pretty up-close. I've been the scared kid in the back of the box with the guy credibly threatening to murder me. If we had a system where people could be placed on a medical hold, and taken somewhere to receive humane treatment with a safe environment to get better, my god, I wouldn't have any problem with that at all. But, I have spent my fair share of time bringing patients into county mental health facilities, and oh man they can be kind of terrifying places. The system, as it exists now, is not even remotely capable of what you describe. It would be great to see a system for humane, limited-term institutionalization with long-term follow-up like you're talking about. If there's a coherent policy platform somewhere that outlines what this would look like and how we get from A to B, I would love to see it.
  - gamblor956 6y ago
    I agree that there are no adequate county medical health facilities. On the other hand, the state mental hospitals are very good at what they do. I had multiple clients treated at Patton (one of the state mental hospitals for criminal offenders) and they are all still maintaining self-medication years after treatment.
    - phobosanomaly 6y ago
      I wasn't familiar with the state facilities. I'll definitely check them out. Moving from here to there is just, well, daunting to say the least.
    - scruple 6y ago
      Asking for personal reasons here. What does it take for a person to, for want of a better word, graduate from the county level facilities to the state level facilities?
sershe 6y ago
I, unlike the GP, actually do propose that, in preference to the current approach. The way I see it, it should work like both the rights and responsibilities currently work for children. Children are not tried for crimes as adults (most of the time), because we understand their lack of capability, but that also means they cannot drive, drink, vote, sign certain contracts without an adult, etc., and small children can be coerced by their parents to an even large degree. Either you are an adult and can participate in society, but then you have to take responsibility for your actions, including going to jail, mental illness or not. Or, mental illness excuses you from responsibility due to limited capability, but then your rights can also be restricted accordingly. The choice for someone committing a crime and claiming mental illness should be jail, or involuntary treatment.

gamblor956 6y ago

Is it constitutional to arrest mentally ill people for being mentally ill? It's possible to involuntarily commit someone to a mental hospital. That's not an arrest, it's a civil commitment of a medical nature without any criminal implications. Sure, they don't want people harassed, but I see no evidence they're actively trying to prevent people from getting treatment. Homeless advocacy groups recently blocked the construction of a homeless shelter in Lancaster because they didn't like the location. They've blocked multiple attempts by the city to force violently mentally ill homeless individuals from being treated, even though such individuals are a harm to themselves and to others...especially others. More than dozen homeless individuals have been murdered this year by other homeless persons who were prevented from receiving medical treatment by homeless advocacy groups. The problem is that the idiot advocates base their views of "harassment" on academic ivory-tower views of personhood, and don't understand what it means to be mentally ill and homeless. It means to be shitting yourself every day, to be eating food off the streets, to spend your days and nights fighting off rats and cockroaches, and to avoiding drug dealers and persons more ill than yourself, to be lost in haze or to be seeing people and creatures that don't exist. Nobody wants to be mentally ill, and once treated, the individual always prefers sanity. The problem with most mental illnesses that lead to homelessness, especially the schizophrenic family of disorders, is that the disorder itself makes the individual paranoid of treatment, and the homeless advocates focus all of their attention on that refusal instead of actually making the person better. A homeless person that has their mental illness under control can transition to permanent housing and become a functioning member of society again. But in order to do that, you need to let them be treated, even if they don't want the treatment.

phobosanomaly 6y ago
First of all, I definitely appreciate the perspective of a Public Defender with experience in this area. I spent a year working as an EMT picking up my fair share of patients on 5150 holds from PD off the street and bringing them to the ER or to the nearest mental health emergency receiving facility. I do agree, this kind of stuff is not pretty up-close. I've been the scared kid in the back of the box with the guy credibly threatening to murder me. If we had a system where people could be placed on a medical hold, and taken somewhere to receive humane treatment with a safe environment to get better, my god, I wouldn't have any problem with that at all. But, I have spent my fair share of time bringing patients into county mental health facilities, and oh man they can be kind of terrifying places. The system, as it exists now, is not even remotely capable of what you describe. It would be great to see a system for humane, limited-term institutionalization with long-term follow-up like you're talking about. If there's a coherent policy platform somewhere that outlines what this would look like and how we get from A to B, I would love to see it.
- gamblor956 6y ago
  I agree that there are no adequate county medical health facilities. On the other hand, the state mental hospitals are very good at what they do. I had multiple clients treated at Patton (one of the state mental hospitals for criminal offenders) and they are all still maintaining self-medication years after treatment.
  - phobosanomaly 6y ago
    I wasn't familiar with the state facilities. I'll definitely check them out. Moving from here to there is just, well, daunting to say the least.
  - scruple 6y ago
    Asking for personal reasons here. What does it take for a person to, for want of a better word, graduate from the county level facilities to the state level facilities?

sershe 6y ago

I, unlike the GP, actually do propose that, in preference to the current approach. The way I see it, it should work like both the rights and responsibilities currently work for children. Children are not tried for crimes as adults (most of the time), because we understand their lack of capability, but that also means they cannot drive, drink, vote, sign certain contracts without an adult, etc., and small children can be coerced by their parents to an even large degree. Either you are an adult and can participate in society, but then you have to take responsibility for your actions, including going to jail, mental illness or not. Or, mental illness excuses you from responsibility due to limited capability, but then your rights can also be restricted accordingly. The choice for someone committing a crime and claiming mental illness should be jail, or involuntary treatment.