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Is it propaganda if I repeat propaganda that managed to convince me? Does propaganda depend on the subjective intent of the speaker? If not, then any informat

Is it propaganda if I repeat propaganda that managed to convince me? Does propaganda depend on the subjective intent of the speaker? If not, then any information system with a few powerful broadcast nodes is indistinguishable from a propaganda machine. Hence monopoly == propaganda. I like [1],[2]. It is sometimes interesting to think about how systems look when edges have different meanings. [1] https://www.linuxjournal.com/files/linuxjournal.com/ufiles/imagecache/large-550px-centered/u1000009/12076f1.gif https://www.linuxjournal.com/files/linuxjournal.com/ufiles/i... [2] https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/new-mental-model-computers-and-networks https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/new-mental-model-comput...

dredmorbius 6y ago
Propaganda entails intent serving a cause. There are useful ... tools ...though other terms are often employed. https://toot.cat/@dredmorbius/105028944477718237 https://toot.cat/@dredmorbius/105028944477718237
zaarn 6y ago
Propaganda is not dependent on the speaker. If you look at historic propaganda of the german third reich, it's still propaganda, despite it possibly being a digital copy in a school book. Propaganda is information or media that is purposefully designed to mislead, misinform or misdirect the reader and/or cause them to spread it to more readers, willfully.
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  Not all propaganda is misleading though; have a browse of https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/ https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/, you'll see anti-war/racism/capitalism posters, PSAs, etc. Your definition is too narrow (it's almost like it's propaganda against propaganda, very meta). The ones I've seen are often one political ideology being positioned against another.
  - pritovido 6y ago
    >you'll see anti-war/racism/capitalism posters, PSAs, etc. Just because you like the misleading message, does not make it less misleading. Just because you are anti something that you consider bad, does not make you good, and more important than that, does not make you better than what you denounce. Hitler was anti-comunist and Stalin anti-fascism. They used the anti "something horrible" as an excuse to grab all power without supervision. I collect propaganda posters, and have lots of Russian communist ones. I study those. Communist has always been experts on propaganda and giving misleading messages.
  - zaarn 6y ago
    Propaganda isn't less propaganda because you like it or because it's true. It's purpose is still the same.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    A definition from a practitioner: > "Propaganda consists of the planned use of any form of public or mass-produced communication designed to affect the minds and emotions of a given group for a specific public purpose, whether military, economic, or political." http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/48612-h.htm#Page_37 http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/48612-h.htm#Pag...
- scottlocklin 6y ago
  >Propaganda is not dependent on the speaker. Yeah, when it's done to serve interests of private industry, it's called "marketing."
  - qznc 6y ago
    When Bernays brought the propaganda techniques of Hitler into the world of US commerce, he invented the term "public relations" to avoid the negative associations with Nazi Germany.
    - mthoms 6y ago
      Nitpick: it was the Nazi's who adopted Bernays' work, and not the other way around - >According to Bernays’ own account he was informed by Karl von Wiegand, foreign correspondent of the Hearst newspapers, that in 1933 Goebbels was using his PR classic Crystallizing Public Opinion ‘as a basis for his destructive campaign against the Jews of Germany’. https://www.historytoday.com/miscellanies/original-influencer https://www.historytoday.com/miscellanies/original-influence... The idea of dropping the "propaganda" moniker in favour of "public relations" because of the Nazi association is likely true though.
      - dredmorbius 6y ago
        Correct, if underappreciated.
    - dredmorbius 6y ago
      Bernays rebranded "propaganda" due to taint from German use of the tactics, yes, but Imperial Germany under Wilhelm II in WWI, not the Nazis in WWII. https://theconversation.com/the-manipulation-of-the-american-mind-edward-bernays-and-the-birth-of-public-relations-44393 https://theconversation.com/the-manipulation-of-the-american...
  - zaarn 6y ago
    Marketing is private propaganda, if you think about it.

dredmorbius 6y ago

Propaganda entails intent serving a cause. There are useful ... tools ...though other terms are often employed. https://toot.cat/@dredmorbius/105028944477718237 https://toot.cat/@dredmorbius/105028944477718237

zaarn 6y ago

Propaganda is not dependent on the speaker. If you look at historic propaganda of the german third reich, it's still propaganda, despite it possibly being a digital copy in a school book. Propaganda is information or media that is purposefully designed to mislead, misinform or misdirect the reader and/or cause them to spread it to more readers, willfully.

Cthulhu_ 6y ago
Not all propaganda is misleading though; have a browse of https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/ https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/, you'll see anti-war/racism/capitalism posters, PSAs, etc. Your definition is too narrow (it's almost like it's propaganda against propaganda, very meta). The ones I've seen are often one political ideology being positioned against another.
- pritovido 6y ago
  >you'll see anti-war/racism/capitalism posters, PSAs, etc. Just because you like the misleading message, does not make it less misleading. Just because you are anti something that you consider bad, does not make you good, and more important than that, does not make you better than what you denounce. Hitler was anti-comunist and Stalin anti-fascism. They used the anti "something horrible" as an excuse to grab all power without supervision. I collect propaganda posters, and have lots of Russian communist ones. I study those. Communist has always been experts on propaganda and giving misleading messages.
- zaarn 6y ago
  Propaganda isn't less propaganda because you like it or because it's true. It's purpose is still the same.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  A definition from a practitioner: > "Propaganda consists of the planned use of any form of public or mass-produced communication designed to affect the minds and emotions of a given group for a specific public purpose, whether military, economic, or political." http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/48612-h.htm#Page_37 http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/48612-h.htm#Pag...
scottlocklin 6y ago
>Propaganda is not dependent on the speaker. Yeah, when it's done to serve interests of private industry, it's called "marketing."
- qznc 6y ago
  When Bernays brought the propaganda techniques of Hitler into the world of US commerce, he invented the term "public relations" to avoid the negative associations with Nazi Germany.
  - mthoms 6y ago
    Nitpick: it was the Nazi's who adopted Bernays' work, and not the other way around - >According to Bernays’ own account he was informed by Karl von Wiegand, foreign correspondent of the Hearst newspapers, that in 1933 Goebbels was using his PR classic Crystallizing Public Opinion ‘as a basis for his destructive campaign against the Jews of Germany’. https://www.historytoday.com/miscellanies/original-influencer https://www.historytoday.com/miscellanies/original-influence... The idea of dropping the "propaganda" moniker in favour of "public relations" because of the Nazi association is likely true though.
    - dredmorbius 6y ago
      Correct, if underappreciated.
  - dredmorbius 6y ago
    Bernays rebranded "propaganda" due to taint from German use of the tactics, yes, but Imperial Germany under Wilhelm II in WWI, not the Nazis in WWII. https://theconversation.com/the-manipulation-of-the-american-mind-edward-bernays-and-the-birth-of-public-relations-44393 https://theconversation.com/the-manipulation-of-the-american...
- zaarn 6y ago
  Marketing is private propaganda, if you think about it.