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>The bottom line is that unfortunately Russia is perceived to be like a bully against its neighbouring countries in its West and North-West because of its words

>The bottom line is that unfortunately Russia is perceived to be like a bully against its neighbouring countries in its West and North-West because of its words and actions. If it stopped doing the needless bullying, maybe those neighbouring countries wouldn't be so fast to point the finger at Russia. Sure, that's really the reason. As with everything above it, you may want to hone your skills in differentiating propaganda from (corroborated) facts. As for the cases you mentioned, there certainly are doubts about (deep) involvement of Russia. For starters because most of the purported evidence really does raise questions about its reliability and in some cases has been shown to not add up. Mind you, I'm not saying this means Russia is innocent. Just that the evidence is inconclusive and in some cases highly questionable (at best). You of course can frame any such doubts as if all "evidence" is just categorically going to be rejected or denied, but that will on you. I don't know how long you have been around and whether you've moved around a lot, but after decades of rather "hands on" experience with how NATO member (often on USA command) have done all kind of (increasingly) questionable things to further their agenda. If you can say with a straight face that this organization to not lie or produces falsified evidence, than you've clearly have little actual experience with being on the receiving end of their efforts. Please do take into account that it is you who is talking like there is an already established fact, that Russia is as bad as you claim, while in reality all of that is derived from rather questionable assertions and in more than a few cases obvious propaganda. I don't claim that Russia is good or bad. That's a complicated discussion and a whole different story, which sadly can hardly be had with most Americans anyways, because the majority is already too presumptuous and indoctrinated to even have a level and honest discussion about it. What this is about is if there is credible evidence that Russia is (to a high degree of likelihood) guilty of the things you claim(ed) about them. To the best of my knowledge, the answer to that is a clear no. In fact, all I have seen regarding that for the last two decades or so, has been (pretty much without exception) propaganda, framed, falsified or otherwise not passing the bar of credibility. But feel free to believe otherwise. I'm pretty sure that time will teach you. Especially since the apparatus that has been pushing all this garbage, is slow but surely creeping towards its inevitable demise. There will be a lot of skeletons falling from closets, you better believe it. In fact, you'd be lucky when those who have suffered from these "games" (and many innocent citizens certainly have) will be forgiving when the full extend of this shit show really comes to light. It will pale both Wikileaks and Snowden in comparison.

thrwway34 6y ago
> which sadly can hardly be had with most Americans anyways, because the majority is already too presumptuous and indoctrinated to even have a level and honest discussion about it. As opposed to pure and non-indoctrinated Russians, the single bearer of truth?
- m0zg 6y ago
  I mean, I'm sure you're inflating Putin's ego massively by attributing superhuman powers to GRU, and in particular to its cyberwarfare arm. But if I were to bet my own money, I'd say the Russian government's capability for anything other than than Nigerian prince style phishing is quite limited. Why? Because in Russia government employees are paid a pittance, and soldiers are paid even less, so they do not get the best people. Shit, they didn't even get _me_, and I have no illusions about being the best at anything other than shitposting on HN.
jnurmine 6y ago
I believe it can be interesting to examine how for example the GPS jamming situation in Northern Norway has developed: There are reports of GPS jamming happening already in 2017. In 2018, GPS was jammed during the NATO Trident Juncture exercise, the diplomatic routes were tried, and Russia denied everything: "Initial diplomatic contacts between Nordic governments and Moscow has produced a flat denial that Russia was behind the GPS signal-jamming." [1] President Putin's senior press spokesman Dmitry Peskov repeated the usual message of innocence and victimhood: "There is a tendency to blame Russia for all sins in general. As a rule, these allegations are found to have no basis in actual fact" [1] Committee of Foreign Affairs chairman Vanhanen of Finland said Norway's intelligence is trustworthy and in any case Norway won't release technical military data: "There is every reason to trust Norway and its intelligence. It’s unlikely that Norway will publicly disclose the methods behind its assessment. As no technical evidence will be offered in the public domain, we may end up in a situation where Russia just denies it. We need to tell Russia that we do not accept disturbances of this kind in our airspace" [1] Year 2019: GPS is again jammed in Northern Norway. Norway now has electronic evidence it was Russia. Russia asked for evidence. Norway provided the civilian-side evidence. Result: no reply from Russia. Again, the message of innocence, victimhood and lack for evidence were made; "The [Russian] Embassy called for evidence." [2] and Zakharova (foreign minister Lavrov's spokesman) "even named the accusations “absurd histories” and said western politicians are making it a habit to blame Russia for all kind of incidents without providing evidence." [2] The Norwegians say they have provided the data: "“We believe this is not acceptable and we have provided the information we have from the civilian side. They asked for our data, and we gave it to them,” [foreign minister] Eriksen Søreide says and underlines that Russia, so far, has not responded to the data." [3] There is a mention of a dialogue having started but where this went is not elaborated. Now, in the year 2020: GPS jamming still happens. "“The last incident was not long ago. In April/May this year we registered another episode. ..., says Police Chief Ellen Katrine Hætta to High North News." [3] "District Police Chief Ellen Katrine Hætta first noticed jamming in 2017 and then notified the Norwegian Police Directorate. The National Security Authority has analyzed the jamming and in September 2018 verified that the jamming came from the east. The intelligence services have concluded that Russia was behind it." [3] There is a pattern. Now, disturbing navigational systems in an wilderness-rich area like Finnmark and Northern Lapland is dangerous, and if it is done intentionally, it is an aggressive move and not anything innocent friendly nations should be doing. Maybe some of those cases were somehow accidental, but why not just come out and say so? > which sadly can hardly be had with most Americans anyways I honestly have no frame of reference for this, since I'm not an American and have no experience discussing these issues with Americans. As for apparatuses creeping to their inevitable demise, President Putin is, however sparky and bright, not by any means immortal, and there is no clear successor defined. There are rumors but that is all. Once Putin loses control for whatever reason, a rush to grab political and economical power is likely to ensue and more than likely to become messy, and no doubt skeletons will fall not only from closets, but windows, too. [1] https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2018/11/16/finland-norway-press-russia-on-suspected-gps-jamming-during-nato-drill/ https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2018/11/16/finland... [2] https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/security/2019/03/russian-military-officials-arrive-oslo-norway-provides-facts-gps-jamming https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/security/2019/03/russian-m... [3] https://www.highnorthnews.com/en/gps-jamming-still-causing-problems-finnmark https://www.highnorthnews.com/en/gps-jamming-still-causing-p...

thrwway34 6y ago

> which sadly can hardly be had with most Americans anyways, because the majority is already too presumptuous and indoctrinated to even have a level and honest discussion about it. As opposed to pure and non-indoctrinated Russians, the single bearer of truth?

m0zg 6y ago
I mean, I'm sure you're inflating Putin's ego massively by attributing superhuman powers to GRU, and in particular to its cyberwarfare arm. But if I were to bet my own money, I'd say the Russian government's capability for anything other than than Nigerian prince style phishing is quite limited. Why? Because in Russia government employees are paid a pittance, and soldiers are paid even less, so they do not get the best people. Shit, they didn't even get _me_, and I have no illusions about being the best at anything other than shitposting on HN.

jnurmine 6y ago

I believe it can be interesting to examine how for example the GPS jamming situation in Northern Norway has developed: There are reports of GPS jamming happening already in 2017. In 2018, GPS was jammed during the NATO Trident Juncture exercise, the diplomatic routes were tried, and Russia denied everything: "Initial diplomatic contacts between Nordic governments and Moscow has produced a flat denial that Russia was behind the GPS signal-jamming." [1] President Putin's senior press spokesman Dmitry Peskov repeated the usual message of innocence and victimhood: "There is a tendency to blame Russia for all sins in general. As a rule, these allegations are found to have no basis in actual fact" [1] Committee of Foreign Affairs chairman Vanhanen of Finland said Norway's intelligence is trustworthy and in any case Norway won't release technical military data: "There is every reason to trust Norway and its intelligence. It’s unlikely that Norway will publicly disclose the methods behind its assessment. As no technical evidence will be offered in the public domain, we may end up in a situation where Russia just denies it. We need to tell Russia that we do not accept disturbances of this kind in our airspace" [1] Year 2019: GPS is again jammed in Northern Norway. Norway now has electronic evidence it was Russia. Russia asked for evidence. Norway provided the civilian-side evidence. Result: no reply from Russia. Again, the message of innocence, victimhood and lack for evidence were made; "The [Russian] Embassy called for evidence." [2] and Zakharova (foreign minister Lavrov's spokesman) "even named the accusations “absurd histories” and said western politicians are making it a habit to blame Russia for all kind of incidents without providing evidence." [2] The Norwegians say they have provided the data: "“We believe this is not acceptable and we have provided the information we have from the civilian side. They asked for our data, and we gave it to them,” [foreign minister] Eriksen Søreide says and underlines that Russia, so far, has not responded to the data." [3] There is a mention of a dialogue having started but where this went is not elaborated. Now, in the year 2020: GPS jamming still happens. "“The last incident was not long ago. In April/May this year we registered another episode. ..., says Police Chief Ellen Katrine Hætta to High North News." [3] "District Police Chief Ellen Katrine Hætta first noticed jamming in 2017 and then notified the Norwegian Police Directorate. The National Security Authority has analyzed the jamming and in September 2018 verified that the jamming came from the east. The intelligence services have concluded that Russia was behind it." [3] There is a pattern. Now, disturbing navigational systems in an wilderness-rich area like Finnmark and Northern Lapland is dangerous, and if it is done intentionally, it is an aggressive move and not anything innocent friendly nations should be doing. Maybe some of those cases were somehow accidental, but why not just come out and say so? > which sadly can hardly be had with most Americans anyways I honestly have no frame of reference for this, since I'm not an American and have no experience discussing these issues with Americans. As for apparatuses creeping to their inevitable demise, President Putin is, however sparky and bright, not by any means immortal, and there is no clear successor defined. There are rumors but that is all. Once Putin loses control for whatever reason, a rush to grab political and economical power is likely to ensue and more than likely to become messy, and no doubt skeletons will fall not only from closets, but windows, too. [1] https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2018/11/16/finland-norway-press-russia-on-suspected-gps-jamming-during-nato-drill/ https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2018/11/16/finland... [2] https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/security/2019/03/russian-military-officials-arrive-oslo-norway-provides-facts-gps-jamming https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/security/2019/03/russian-m... [3] https://www.highnorthnews.com/en/gps-jamming-still-causing-problems-finnmark https://www.highnorthnews.com/en/gps-jamming-still-causing-p...