3 ms·

This argument is a bit funky in that the lack of perks isn't discussed. On face value, yeah you'd be making less in WY vs. SF for CoL. But while they've moved

This argument is a bit funky in that the lack of perks isn't discussed. On face value, yeah you'd be making less in WY vs. SF for CoL. But while they've moved to WY, they're not getting catered 3 meals a day, free yoga classes, and the office space. There are real dollar values attached to that. So if these SWEs get a pay cut, and a benefits cut... Companies are getting a pretty solid deal in terms of possible labor disputes to contend with if elite SWEs who did this remote move aren't bringing this up.

colinmhayes 6y ago
Have companies been laying off the cooks and not paying rent? Otherwise the reduced food bill isn't that much of a saving.
- dogman144 6y ago
  Not sure! My original point is just that the framing from WSJ doesn't capture accurate compensation factors well. To your point: I think that's irrelevant/off topic. There's probably a theoretical % of employees who could go remote that in turn will make a company move office space or fire cooks. Otherwise, those are fixed costs and don't come into the picture here. I don't think either % get hit for the class of SWE I'm referring too, so it's just lost benefits to the SWEs.
  - colinmhayes 6y ago
    Well the company is still paying for the benefits they offered you, you just can't use them. I see both sides of the argument but we're in unprecedented territory here and in the end what's "fair" has little no to impact on the outcome of negotiations.
    - dogman144 6y ago
      They're paying for the benefits still, but unless a certain % of SWEs go remote, there's diminishing costs per SWE to provide the benefits. You have to consider the scale the benefits "get provided at." At a certain point, it costs the same to feed premium salad to 500 engineers as it does 575 engineers (no idea if this is the math, but conceptually yeah). A cook can make 600 or 700 gallons of soup without much difference or new purchases required: huge vat of soup is 2/3 vs. 3/4 full. If the % of remote engineers hit a level such that cooks have to buy new soup bowls, idle hand cooks, or offices with cavernous empty halllways, then yeah, you're back under diminishing costs/eng and need to scale down.
- legerdemain 6y ago
  Palantir did, as early as last year, to create an impression of belt-tightening among its employees in preparation for the IPO. Fired the kitchen staff, dropped the lease on its kitchen facility, and switched to Sodexo or someone like them to bring in hot meals. Made it much easier to cut contracts during the pandemic!
thechao 6y ago
Has there been a section 119 update since the 2014 guidance? Also, I don't think free Yoga classes fall under section 119 — those will be taxed as income.
- SilasX 6y ago
  Well it wouldn't be 119 specifically, which seems to only refer to meals and lodging. But I found this IRS document [1] which gives a thorough overview of what fringe benefits are taxable. There might be an exemption in the section about athletic facilities (§132) [2] or perhaps there are circumstances where it could count as a de minimis benefit [3]. Disclaimer: not anything close to a lawyer, let alone a tax lawyer. [1] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/fringe_benefit_fslg.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/fringe_benefit_fslg.pdf Up to date html equivalent for 2020 is at https://www.irs.gov/publications/p15b#en_US_2020_publink1000193657 https://www.irs.gov/publications/p15b#en_US_2020_publink1000... [2] from the html link: >>You can exclude the value of an employee's use of an on-premises gym or other athletic facility you operate from an employee's wages if substantially all use of the facility during the calendar year is by your employees ... The exclusion doesn't apply to any athletic facility if access to the facility is made available to the general public through the sale of memberships, the rental of the facility, or a similar arrangement. [3] https://www.irs.gov/publications/p15b#en_US_2020_publink1000193660 https://www.irs.gov/publications/p15b#en_US_2020_publink1000...
djrogers 6y ago
> But while they've moved to WY, they're not getting catered 3 meals a day, free yoga classes, and the office space. There are real dollar values attached to that. I’m a ‘remote’ worker (I actually live close enough to work in my office but choose not to), and while I don’t get all of the in-office perks, I do get other ones the office workers don’t. Home office allowance for things like monitors/printers/desks, ISP and cell phone are covered monthly, I get paid $0.54/mi when I do have to go into the office, and I don’t have to go into the office much. All in all, I figure I make out about even on a $$ standpoint, and my lifestyle is much preferable to what I’d have if I had to commute.
andrewmutz 6y ago
The total cost of living is 50% cheaper in Wyoming (source: https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-living-calculator/compare/san-francisco-ca-vs-casper-wy https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-living-calculator/compare...) For most tech company salaries, that can buy you all the meals and yoga you want.

colinmhayes 6y ago

Have companies been laying off the cooks and not paying rent? Otherwise the reduced food bill isn't that much of a saving.

dogman144 6y ago
Not sure! My original point is just that the framing from WSJ doesn't capture accurate compensation factors well. To your point: I think that's irrelevant/off topic. There's probably a theoretical % of employees who could go remote that in turn will make a company move office space or fire cooks. Otherwise, those are fixed costs and don't come into the picture here. I don't think either % get hit for the class of SWE I'm referring too, so it's just lost benefits to the SWEs.
- colinmhayes 6y ago
  Well the company is still paying for the benefits they offered you, you just can't use them. I see both sides of the argument but we're in unprecedented territory here and in the end what's "fair" has little no to impact on the outcome of negotiations.
  - dogman144 6y ago
    They're paying for the benefits still, but unless a certain % of SWEs go remote, there's diminishing costs per SWE to provide the benefits. You have to consider the scale the benefits "get provided at." At a certain point, it costs the same to feed premium salad to 500 engineers as it does 575 engineers (no idea if this is the math, but conceptually yeah). A cook can make 600 or 700 gallons of soup without much difference or new purchases required: huge vat of soup is 2/3 vs. 3/4 full. If the % of remote engineers hit a level such that cooks have to buy new soup bowls, idle hand cooks, or offices with cavernous empty halllways, then yeah, you're back under diminishing costs/eng and need to scale down.
legerdemain 6y ago
Palantir did, as early as last year, to create an impression of belt-tightening among its employees in preparation for the IPO. Fired the kitchen staff, dropped the lease on its kitchen facility, and switched to Sodexo or someone like them to bring in hot meals. Made it much easier to cut contracts during the pandemic!

thechao 6y ago

Has there been a section 119 update since the 2014 guidance? Also, I don't think free Yoga classes fall under section 119 — those will be taxed as income.

SilasX 6y ago
Well it wouldn't be 119 specifically, which seems to only refer to meals and lodging. But I found this IRS document [1] which gives a thorough overview of what fringe benefits are taxable. There might be an exemption in the section about athletic facilities (§132) [2] or perhaps there are circumstances where it could count as a de minimis benefit [3]. Disclaimer: not anything close to a lawyer, let alone a tax lawyer. [1] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/fringe_benefit_fslg.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/fringe_benefit_fslg.pdf Up to date html equivalent for 2020 is at https://www.irs.gov/publications/p15b#en_US_2020_publink1000193657 https://www.irs.gov/publications/p15b#en_US_2020_publink1000... [2] from the html link: >>You can exclude the value of an employee's use of an on-premises gym or other athletic facility you operate from an employee's wages if substantially all use of the facility during the calendar year is by your employees ... The exclusion doesn't apply to any athletic facility if access to the facility is made available to the general public through the sale of memberships, the rental of the facility, or a similar arrangement. [3] https://www.irs.gov/publications/p15b#en_US_2020_publink1000193660 https://www.irs.gov/publications/p15b#en_US_2020_publink1000...

djrogers 6y ago

> But while they've moved to WY, they're not getting catered 3 meals a day, free yoga classes, and the office space. There are real dollar values attached to that. I’m a ‘remote’ worker (I actually live close enough to work in my office but choose not to), and while I don’t get all of the in-office perks, I do get other ones the office workers don’t. Home office allowance for things like monitors/printers/desks, ISP and cell phone are covered monthly, I get paid $0.54/mi when I do have to go into the office, and I don’t have to go into the office much. All in all, I figure I make out about even on a $$ standpoint, and my lifestyle is much preferable to what I’d have if I had to commute.

andrewmutz 6y ago

The total cost of living is 50% cheaper in Wyoming (source: https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-living-calculator/compare/san-francisco-ca-vs-casper-wy https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-living-calculator/compare...) For most tech company salaries, that can buy you all the meals and yoga you want.