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Apple is consistently better on privacy, actually, than competitors. Not sure which competitors you are talking about or which issues/products, but you're way,

by Bud 6y ago

Apple is consistently better on privacy, actually, than competitors. Not sure which competitors you are talking about or which issues/products, but you're way, way off-base. And for obvious reasons: Amazon and Google need to gather user data to survive because they don't make any profitable hardware. Apple doesn't need your data, plus, they have a real and honest commitment to privacy. It's not even a close call, really.

lern_too_spel 6y ago
> Apple is consistently better on privacy, actually, than competitors. Among Apple, Amazon, and Google; only Apple's phones and tablets send your location to Apple every time you use GPS (even if you're not using an Apple app like Apple Maps!). Among those three companies, only Apple requires you to tell Apple every app you install. Among those three companies, only Apple requires you to further associate your banking details with all that data collection if you want to develop apps for your own device. That is not an honest commitment to privacy. The other two companies let you opt out of all data collection entirely on your devices. You're absolutely right that it's not a close call. To millstone because downvotes prevent me from replying: that is data that the users voluntarily gave Google (like their email and documents), and Google collects that data from its services on iOS as well. On Android, you don't have to give Google any of your data at all. It even makes it easy to not send data to Google by letting you choose a default maps application, browser, etc. Compare to Apple, where you must give your location data to Apple if you want to know where you are on iOS, and there is nothing you can do about it. One is clearly worse. Making light of not being able to develop apps for your own devices without handing over banking details is something I never thought I would see on a forum for technologists.
- Doctor_Fegg 6y ago
  > only Apple's phones and tablets send your location to Apple every time you use GPS Impressed they can do that when I’m using offline mapping in an area with no mobile signal.
  - lern_too_spel 6y ago
    It gets stored on the device and sent when you are back online. On an Amazon or Google Android device, you can use a truly offline mapping app that doesn't send data to anybody. Even better, you can set that as your default map provider if you like. To sibling commenter: my comment is based on a correct understanding of Location Services, not on anything to do with Find My Device. You don't have to put words in my mouth, especially when I have already explained it using my own words elsewhere in the thread.
  - shagie 6y ago
    I believe that the other poster's comments are based on a misunderstanding of the technology behind the "find my device" feature. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/06/the-clever-cryptography-behind-apples-find-my-feature/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/06/the-c... gets into the crypto side of it. So yes, information about location is being sent to Apple. No, it's not useful for Apple and it is encrypted in a way that Apple can't get it the underlying data. > Apple returns the encrypted location of the laptop to your iPad, which can use its private key to decrypt it and tell you the laptop's last known location. Meanwhile, Apple has never seen the decrypted location, and since hashing functions are designed to be irreversible, it can't even use the hashed public keys to collect any information about where the device has been.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- zepto 6y ago
  “Among Apple, Amazon, and Google; only Apple's phones and tablets send your location to Apple every time you use GPS.“ This is a false statement that you continue to repeat.
  - lern_too_spel 6y ago
    This is a correct statement, which I have proven to you before. What's more, your earlier quibble about anonymizing the data doesn't even negate the statements I have made. Apple always sends your location to Apple, while Google and Amazon do not if you don't want them to. Just as you did then, you continue to ignore the even more egregious practice of not only tracking everything you install but tying it to your identity. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24585353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24585353 Due to people downvoting my comments to the point that I cannot reply, I will explain why askafriend is wrong right here (though I already explained why they are wrong in my GP post, which they also ignored in their response to that post). Disabling Apple Maps from getting your location does not stop Apple from getting your location. When any app gets your location on iOS, Apple also gets your location. This is explained clearly in the link contained in this comment, which askafriend ignored. Both Amazon and Google allow you to get your location without telling anybody.
    - askafriend 6y ago
      Wrong. Go into Settings -> Privacy -> Location Services -> Maps and toggle the setting to "Never". The full set of options are: * Never * Ask Next Time * While Using the App * While Using the App or Widgets and there is also a toggle to turn off Precise Location so that apps only get approximate location. Go nuts with the options. I just tried it and I can use the Maps app just fine with location services set to "Never". Picking some narrow definition that fits your point isn't going to convince anyone of your grand statement. It just comes off as disingenuous.
      - lern_too_spel 6y ago
        Disabling Apple Maps from getting your location does not stop Apple from getting your location. When any app gets your location on iOS, Apple also gets your location. Apple even gets your location if no app requests your location. This is explained clearly in the link contained in comment you replied to. Both Amazon and Google allow you to get your location without telling anybody.
- askafriend 6y ago
  A lot of your statements are either misleading or false but I don't have the energy to engage so I'll let someone else do it. As a start, I'll paste some information from Apple and TechCrunch around when they rebuilt maps from the ground up in 2018: --- “We specifically don’t collect data, even from point A to point B,” notes Cue. “We collect data — when we do it — in an anonymous fashion, in subsections of the whole, so we couldn’t even say that there is a person that went from point A to point B. We’re collecting the segments of it. As you can imagine, that’s always been a key part of doing this. Honestly, we don’t think it buys us anything [to collect more]. We’re not losing any features or capabilities by doing this.” The segments that he is referring to are sliced out of any given person’s navigation session. Neither the beginning or the end of any trip is ever transmitted to Apple. Rotating identifiers, not personal information, are assigned to any data or requests sent to Apple and it augments the “ground truth” data provided by its own mapping vehicles with this “probe data” sent back from iPhones. Because only random segments of any person’s drive is ever sent and that data is completely anonymized, there is never a way to tell if any trip was ever a single individual. The local system signs the IDs and only it knows to whom that ID refers. Apple is working very hard here to not know anything about its users. This kind of privacy can’t be added on at the end, it has to be woven in at the ground level. The secret sauce here is what Apple calls probe data. Essentially little slices of vector data that represent direction and speed transmitted back to Apple completely anonymized with no way to tie it to a specific user or even any given trip. It’s reaching in and sipping a tiny amount of data from millions of users instead, giving it a holistic, real-time picture without compromising user privacy. All of this, of course, is governed by whether you opted into location services, and can be toggled off using the maps location toggle in the Privacy section of settings. Apple says that this will have a near zero effect on battery life or data usage, because you’re already using the ‘maps’ features when any probe data is shared and it’s a fraction of what power is being drawn by those activities. ----
- millstone 6y ago
  On the one hand, Google has compiled a petabyte scale database containing detailed day-to-day movements, trips taken, searches made, web sites visited, purchases online and offline, and more, all linked together and associated with our identities. But Apple requires a credit card to sign up for a developer account so obviously they're much worse.
  - lern_too_spel 6y ago
    One of them is collected with user consent on both iOS and Android. The other is a problem only with iOS, and you cannot opt out.
    - millstone 6y ago
      The Arizona lawsuit tracks the many ways that Google manufactures "consent", from deliberately confusing UIs, to pushing software updates that automatically change settings without informing the user. It even documents cases of Google engineers who thought they had opted out, but were not. And this is ignoring the tons of non-consensual tracking, such as purchasing credit card history, the DoubleClick/GTags/Analytics that infest the web, etc. Maybe you can get an Android phone and thoroughly deGooglefy it by flashing LineageOS or whatever. I'll give you that, you can't do that with an iPhone. If that's your bar, then so be it. iPhones are not for you. But the vast vast majority of users will have their privacy better protected by Apple's location services, which don't track you, than Google's pushy and deceptive tracking.
      - lern_too_spel 6y ago
        > The Arizona lawsuit tracks the many ways that Google manufactures "consent" That lawsuit is completely irrelevant to the question of which devices provide more privacy. > Maybe you can get an Android phone and thoroughly deGooglefy it by flashing LineageOS or whatever. You don't have to do that. Just don't use apps that use Google services. Done. It's that simple. On Apple devices, you have no choice but to give up your privacy. Worse, you give up your privacy to use garbage services that are less useful than their Google and Amazon counterparts.
bduerst 6y ago
>Apple doesn't need your data, plus, they have a real and honest commitment to privacy. Since you opened that door: Apple shares personal user data with the Chinese government. Call it what you will, but it's not a 'real honest commitment to privacy'. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy-betrayal-for-chinese-icloud-users/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy...

by Bud 6y ago

lern_too_spel 6y ago

> Apple is consistently better on privacy, actually, than competitors. Among Apple, Amazon, and Google; only Apple's phones and tablets send your location to Apple every time you use GPS (even if you're not using an Apple app like Apple Maps!). Among those three companies, only Apple requires you to tell Apple every app you install. Among those three companies, only Apple requires you to further associate your banking details with all that data collection if you want to develop apps for your own device. That is not an honest commitment to privacy. The other two companies let you opt out of all data collection entirely on your devices. You're absolutely right that it's not a close call. To millstone because downvotes prevent me from replying: that is data that the users voluntarily gave Google (like their email and documents), and Google collects that data from its services on iOS as well. On Android, you don't have to give Google any of your data at all. It even makes it easy to not send data to Google by letting you choose a default maps application, browser, etc. Compare to Apple, where you must give your location data to Apple if you want to know where you are on iOS, and there is nothing you can do about it. One is clearly worse. Making light of not being able to develop apps for your own devices without handing over banking details is something I never thought I would see on a forum for technologists.

Doctor_Fegg 6y ago
> only Apple's phones and tablets send your location to Apple every time you use GPS Impressed they can do that when I’m using offline mapping in an area with no mobile signal.
- lern_too_spel 6y ago
  It gets stored on the device and sent when you are back online. On an Amazon or Google Android device, you can use a truly offline mapping app that doesn't send data to anybody. Even better, you can set that as your default map provider if you like. To sibling commenter: my comment is based on a correct understanding of Location Services, not on anything to do with Find My Device. You don't have to put words in my mouth, especially when I have already explained it using my own words elsewhere in the thread.
- shagie 6y ago
  I believe that the other poster's comments are based on a misunderstanding of the technology behind the "find my device" feature. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/06/the-clever-cryptography-behind-apples-find-my-feature/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/06/the-c... gets into the crypto side of it. So yes, information about location is being sent to Apple. No, it's not useful for Apple and it is encrypted in a way that Apple can't get it the underlying data. > Apple returns the encrypted location of the laptop to your iPad, which can use its private key to decrypt it and tell you the laptop's last known location. Meanwhile, Apple has never seen the decrypted location, and since hashing functions are designed to be irreversible, it can't even use the hashed public keys to collect any information about where the device has been.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
zepto 6y ago
“Among Apple, Amazon, and Google; only Apple's phones and tablets send your location to Apple every time you use GPS.“ This is a false statement that you continue to repeat.
- lern_too_spel 6y ago
  This is a correct statement, which I have proven to you before. What's more, your earlier quibble about anonymizing the data doesn't even negate the statements I have made. Apple always sends your location to Apple, while Google and Amazon do not if you don't want them to. Just as you did then, you continue to ignore the even more egregious practice of not only tracking everything you install but tying it to your identity. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24585353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24585353 Due to people downvoting my comments to the point that I cannot reply, I will explain why askafriend is wrong right here (though I already explained why they are wrong in my GP post, which they also ignored in their response to that post). Disabling Apple Maps from getting your location does not stop Apple from getting your location. When any app gets your location on iOS, Apple also gets your location. This is explained clearly in the link contained in this comment, which askafriend ignored. Both Amazon and Google allow you to get your location without telling anybody.
  - askafriend 6y ago
    Wrong. Go into Settings -> Privacy -> Location Services -> Maps and toggle the setting to "Never". The full set of options are: * Never * Ask Next Time * While Using the App * While Using the App or Widgets and there is also a toggle to turn off Precise Location so that apps only get approximate location. Go nuts with the options. I just tried it and I can use the Maps app just fine with location services set to "Never". Picking some narrow definition that fits your point isn't going to convince anyone of your grand statement. It just comes off as disingenuous.
    - lern_too_spel 6y ago
      Disabling Apple Maps from getting your location does not stop Apple from getting your location. When any app gets your location on iOS, Apple also gets your location. Apple even gets your location if no app requests your location. This is explained clearly in the link contained in comment you replied to. Both Amazon and Google allow you to get your location without telling anybody.
askafriend 6y ago
A lot of your statements are either misleading or false but I don't have the energy to engage so I'll let someone else do it. As a start, I'll paste some information from Apple and TechCrunch around when they rebuilt maps from the ground up in 2018: --- “We specifically don’t collect data, even from point A to point B,” notes Cue. “We collect data — when we do it — in an anonymous fashion, in subsections of the whole, so we couldn’t even say that there is a person that went from point A to point B. We’re collecting the segments of it. As you can imagine, that’s always been a key part of doing this. Honestly, we don’t think it buys us anything [to collect more]. We’re not losing any features or capabilities by doing this.” The segments that he is referring to are sliced out of any given person’s navigation session. Neither the beginning or the end of any trip is ever transmitted to Apple. Rotating identifiers, not personal information, are assigned to any data or requests sent to Apple and it augments the “ground truth” data provided by its own mapping vehicles with this “probe data” sent back from iPhones. Because only random segments of any person’s drive is ever sent and that data is completely anonymized, there is never a way to tell if any trip was ever a single individual. The local system signs the IDs and only it knows to whom that ID refers. Apple is working very hard here to not know anything about its users. This kind of privacy can’t be added on at the end, it has to be woven in at the ground level. The secret sauce here is what Apple calls probe data. Essentially little slices of vector data that represent direction and speed transmitted back to Apple completely anonymized with no way to tie it to a specific user or even any given trip. It’s reaching in and sipping a tiny amount of data from millions of users instead, giving it a holistic, real-time picture without compromising user privacy. All of this, of course, is governed by whether you opted into location services, and can be toggled off using the maps location toggle in the Privacy section of settings. Apple says that this will have a near zero effect on battery life or data usage, because you’re already using the ‘maps’ features when any probe data is shared and it’s a fraction of what power is being drawn by those activities. ----
millstone 6y ago
On the one hand, Google has compiled a petabyte scale database containing detailed day-to-day movements, trips taken, searches made, web sites visited, purchases online and offline, and more, all linked together and associated with our identities. But Apple requires a credit card to sign up for a developer account so obviously they're much worse.
- lern_too_spel 6y ago
  One of them is collected with user consent on both iOS and Android. The other is a problem only with iOS, and you cannot opt out.
  - millstone 6y ago
    The Arizona lawsuit tracks the many ways that Google manufactures "consent", from deliberately confusing UIs, to pushing software updates that automatically change settings without informing the user. It even documents cases of Google engineers who thought they had opted out, but were not. And this is ignoring the tons of non-consensual tracking, such as purchasing credit card history, the DoubleClick/GTags/Analytics that infest the web, etc. Maybe you can get an Android phone and thoroughly deGooglefy it by flashing LineageOS or whatever. I'll give you that, you can't do that with an iPhone. If that's your bar, then so be it. iPhones are not for you. But the vast vast majority of users will have their privacy better protected by Apple's location services, which don't track you, than Google's pushy and deceptive tracking.
    - lern_too_spel 6y ago
      > The Arizona lawsuit tracks the many ways that Google manufactures "consent" That lawsuit is completely irrelevant to the question of which devices provide more privacy. > Maybe you can get an Android phone and thoroughly deGooglefy it by flashing LineageOS or whatever. You don't have to do that. Just don't use apps that use Google services. Done. It's that simple. On Apple devices, you have no choice but to give up your privacy. Worse, you give up your privacy to use garbage services that are less useful than their Google and Amazon counterparts.

bduerst 6y ago

>Apple doesn't need your data, plus, they have a real and honest commitment to privacy. Since you opened that door: Apple shares personal user data with the Chinese government. Call it what you will, but it's not a 'real honest commitment to privacy'. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy-betrayal-for-chinese-icloud-users/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy...