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I'd argue that not knowing the language you're working with is a problem that's not exclusive to C++. There's so much more going on under the hood of more high

by qayxc 6y ago

I'd argue that not knowing the language you're working with is a problem that's not exclusive to C++. There's so much more going on under the hood of more high level languages, that writing faster code is straight up black magic [1]. [1] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/28723658/python-why-is-it-faster-to-iterate-over-a-list-than-iterating-over-an-xrange https://stackoverflow.com/questions/28723658/python-why-is-i...

throwaway894345 6y ago
Yes, you must always know your language, but mastering (for example) Go is a lot easier than getting a cursory understanding of C++ (i.e., enough to write correct code for non-toy applications). You can get a cursory understanding of Go in a few hours and you can master it in 1-2 months. It would be months and years in C++, respectively. C++ is just a much larger, more complex language, so there is a lot more to know. It's not that C++ is inherently bad--some of that complexity allows C++ to be faster and more powerful than Go; however, we can't pretend that the two are equivalent with respect to their ease of learning or number of footguns.
- qayxc 6y ago
  I agree in general, but knowing the difference between pass-by reference and pass-by value is C++ 101. Mastering C++ isn't even required to be productive using it, since there's no need to use all the language features simply because they exist. This also avoids the majority of footguns.
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    > I agree in general, but knowing the difference between pass-by reference and pass-by value is C++ 101. I agree. But the scientific computing community includes a lot of people who have no exposure to computing at all, so that vectors are copied when passed by value (as opposed to a fat pointer a la Go slices) is a performance foot gun for these new users. For that matter, a lot of people coming to C++ from any higher level language will likely be tripped on on this for a while. > Mastering C++ isn't even required to be productive using it, since there's no need to use all the language features simply because they exist. Right, I was distinguishing between "mastering" and "knowing enough to be productive". I'm asserting that you can master Go in far less time than is required to be merely productive in C++ (granted, I'm assuming "productive" means "you're not regularly introducing memory leaks, segfaults, etc" i.e., "you understand memory management best practices in C++"). Specifically, I think it takes 1-2 months for a newbie programmer to become a master of Go and ~6 months to become merely "productive" in C++ (bear in mind that even figuring out how to build non-trivial C++ programs is itself a herculean feat).
- gumby 6y ago
  For a systems programming language the part of C++ that most people need to know isn’t huge. There’s a lot in c++ that only exists for back compatibility and you don’t need to use it. There’s also a lot of infrastructure so library writers can write very efficient generic code. Most people are not writing libraries and don’t need that stuff.
  - sdenton4 6y ago
    You got all the backwards compatibility stuff, though, if you're code base is older than today. Or if you've got co workers who learned on c++11 instead of c++19... Also, templates, and the indecipherable errors they throw. And cpp memory handling errors are one of the largest sources of security holes. I'm convinced that apologising for cpp is basically Stockholm syndrome. These are things we absolutely would not accept in a new language, but we must, because it's what we've got. Rust can't win fast enough, I say...
    - throwaway894345 6y ago
      I would even say that simply knowing which things are essential and which are "legacy things for backwards compatibility that most people don't need to know about" is nontrivial, and I'm not even sure that there is substantial consensus among the C++ community about exactly what is in the "legacy/compatibility things" bucket (no doubt there's wide spread agreement that some features are in this bucket, but I imagine there are a lot of features that are controversial).
    - ncmncm 6y ago
      It would be great if a modern language could match C++, but none is on the horizon. Rust is powerful enough to do a lot of what C++ is used for, but not the hardest things. There are libraries you write routinely in C++ that you can't code in, or call from, Rust, and never will. The gap will widen with time. Rust is focused on low-level safety at the expense of library power, but you get safety in C++ by coding using more powerful and safe libraries, so C++ comes out ahead in the end. Rust is a way better language than Go or Java. It would be excellent if Rust could displace them, or even just one of them. If its adoption rate were to increase by maybe two or three orders of magnitude, it could survive. But the Rust core team seem not interested in doing what would be needed to get that much adoption, and hype alone won't get it there. Rust's place will be secure when more complaints are written about it than paeans.
User23 6y ago
C++ has a famously complex standard though, to the point that, last I checked, there are no fully standards conforming C++ compilers. I know one member of the standards body and he is an excellent software engineer, a subject matter expert, and just wicked smart too, and he still confesses he doesn't really understand C++. There's a reason why Google doesn't actually have C++ as a supported language, but rather a curated subset thereof that's governed by their house style guide.
- qayxc 6y ago
  I concur, but using and knowing a reasonable subset is enough to be productive. Rust has its own problems and pitfalls as well, and I doubt that people who don't understand pass-by value vs pass-by reference and its implications will be happy with fighting the compiler over ownership issues. Implementing a doubly linked list comes to mind - trivial in C++ - a brain twister in Rust and apologists will hide behind statements like "they're almost always the wrong choice anyway" or they're "just used pedagogically" [1]. A cynic could interpret that as Stockholm Syndrome as well. [1] https://codereview.stackexchange.com/questions/204183/doubly-linked-list-in-rust https://codereview.stackexchange.com/questions/204183/doubly...

by qayxc 6y ago

throwaway894345 6y ago

Yes, you must always know your language, but mastering (for example) Go is a lot easier than getting a cursory understanding of C++ (i.e., enough to write correct code for non-toy applications). You can get a cursory understanding of Go in a few hours and you can master it in 1-2 months. It would be months and years in C++, respectively. C++ is just a much larger, more complex language, so there is a lot more to know. It's not that C++ is inherently bad--some of that complexity allows C++ to be faster and more powerful than Go; however, we can't pretend that the two are equivalent with respect to their ease of learning or number of footguns.

qayxc 6y ago
I agree in general, but knowing the difference between pass-by reference and pass-by value is C++ 101. Mastering C++ isn't even required to be productive using it, since there's no need to use all the language features simply because they exist. This also avoids the majority of footguns.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  > I agree in general, but knowing the difference between pass-by reference and pass-by value is C++ 101. I agree. But the scientific computing community includes a lot of people who have no exposure to computing at all, so that vectors are copied when passed by value (as opposed to a fat pointer a la Go slices) is a performance foot gun for these new users. For that matter, a lot of people coming to C++ from any higher level language will likely be tripped on on this for a while. > Mastering C++ isn't even required to be productive using it, since there's no need to use all the language features simply because they exist. Right, I was distinguishing between "mastering" and "knowing enough to be productive". I'm asserting that you can master Go in far less time than is required to be merely productive in C++ (granted, I'm assuming "productive" means "you're not regularly introducing memory leaks, segfaults, etc" i.e., "you understand memory management best practices in C++"). Specifically, I think it takes 1-2 months for a newbie programmer to become a master of Go and ~6 months to become merely "productive" in C++ (bear in mind that even figuring out how to build non-trivial C++ programs is itself a herculean feat).
gumby 6y ago
For a systems programming language the part of C++ that most people need to know isn’t huge. There’s a lot in c++ that only exists for back compatibility and you don’t need to use it. There’s also a lot of infrastructure so library writers can write very efficient generic code. Most people are not writing libraries and don’t need that stuff.
- sdenton4 6y ago
  You got all the backwards compatibility stuff, though, if you're code base is older than today. Or if you've got co workers who learned on c++11 instead of c++19... Also, templates, and the indecipherable errors they throw. And cpp memory handling errors are one of the largest sources of security holes. I'm convinced that apologising for cpp is basically Stockholm syndrome. These are things we absolutely would not accept in a new language, but we must, because it's what we've got. Rust can't win fast enough, I say...
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    I would even say that simply knowing which things are essential and which are "legacy things for backwards compatibility that most people don't need to know about" is nontrivial, and I'm not even sure that there is substantial consensus among the C++ community about exactly what is in the "legacy/compatibility things" bucket (no doubt there's wide spread agreement that some features are in this bucket, but I imagine there are a lot of features that are controversial).
  - ncmncm 6y ago
    It would be great if a modern language could match C++, but none is on the horizon. Rust is powerful enough to do a lot of what C++ is used for, but not the hardest things. There are libraries you write routinely in C++ that you can't code in, or call from, Rust, and never will. The gap will widen with time. Rust is focused on low-level safety at the expense of library power, but you get safety in C++ by coding using more powerful and safe libraries, so C++ comes out ahead in the end. Rust is a way better language than Go or Java. It would be excellent if Rust could displace them, or even just one of them. If its adoption rate were to increase by maybe two or three orders of magnitude, it could survive. But the Rust core team seem not interested in doing what would be needed to get that much adoption, and hype alone won't get it there. Rust's place will be secure when more complaints are written about it than paeans.

User23 6y ago

C++ has a famously complex standard though, to the point that, last I checked, there are no fully standards conforming C++ compilers. I know one member of the standards body and he is an excellent software engineer, a subject matter expert, and just wicked smart too, and he still confesses he doesn't really understand C++. There's a reason why Google doesn't actually have C++ as a supported language, but rather a curated subset thereof that's governed by their house style guide.

qayxc 6y ago
I concur, but using and knowing a reasonable subset is enough to be productive. Rust has its own problems and pitfalls as well, and I doubt that people who don't understand pass-by value vs pass-by reference and its implications will be happy with fighting the compiler over ownership issues. Implementing a doubly linked list comes to mind - trivial in C++ - a brain twister in Rust and apologists will hide behind statements like "they're almost always the wrong choice anyway" or they're "just used pedagogically" [1]. A cynic could interpret that as Stockholm Syndrome as well. [1] https://codereview.stackexchange.com/questions/204183/doubly-linked-list-in-rust https://codereview.stackexchange.com/questions/204183/doubly...