4 ms·

I understand where you are coming from, and it might indeed appear that way. But look at another link from HN: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54510363 ht

I understand where you are coming from, and it might indeed appear that way. But look at another link from HN: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54510363 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54510363 This is incredible creativity at work there at this dutch company. So creativity exists, it is well and flourishing, but still the overwhelming majority of people are not creative. Therefore, most people at Facebook, Google etc. are not creative. If you want to be creative, you need to be creative in carving out your own way of doing so also. It was always like that, and it will always be like that.

bergstromm466 6y ago
> incredible creativity at work there at this dutch company I understand where you are coming from, and it might indeed appear that way. But the primary reason they are successful and have been able to make this step is because of the rich inheritance available to the researchers. Most jobs under Capitalism today are soul crushing and exploitative. In my journey of going upstream to try to seek to understand the root of this dysfunction, I came to see that it is due to 1) the Intellectual Property system that creates contrived/artificial scarcity due to outdated economics, and 2) the credit monopoly [the way we are forced to mediate our interactions through capitalist debt protocols/agreements ($, €, etc)]. Our current system is truly the elephant in the room. [1] I really don't think an Intellectual Property Monopoly is the only way creativity can happen. I think if we switched to FLOSS-everything we'd still have all the same tech. In fact I think we'd have more innovation than ever before. More chances for more people to work on things means more experimentation and results, could mean safer and more sustainable developments - and thus more sustainable technologies. Silicon Valley isn't special. I am on here with you other technology enthusiasts and experts because the discussions on innovation do happen here currently. But it's not because it's unique. It's because Silicon Valley and American investors exert power over everyone else in the world through through it's IP system and agreements like TRIPS, together with the US-based money system and US-influenced 'development' organizations like the IMF and the World Bank. [2] Imagine what the world would look like without IP? [1] https://prezi.com/xmzld_-wayho/new-economy-new-wealth/ https://prezi.com/xmzld_-wayho/new-economy-new-wealth/ [2] https://www.jasonhickel.org/blog/2019/10/16/apartheid-in-the-global-governance-system https://www.jasonhickel.org/blog/2019/10/16/apartheid-in-the...
- auggierose 6y ago
  > because of the rich inheritance available to the researchers And where did that come from? From some open-source foundation?
  - bergstromm466 6y ago
    > And where did that come from? From some open-source foundation? From our dead ancestors. “A patent is a device that enables one man to claim special financial rewards for being the last link in the complicated social process that produced the invention.” — Lewis Mumford "Every machine has had the same history — a long record of sleepless nights and of poverty, of disillusions and of joys, of partial improvements discovered by several generations of nameless workers, who have added to the original invention these little nothings, without which the most fertile idea would remain fruitless. More than that: every new invention is a synthesis, the resultant of innumerable inventions which have preceded it in the vast field of mechanics and industry. Science and industry, knowledge and application, discovery and practical realization leading to new discoveries, cunning of brain and of hand, toil of mind and muscle-all work together. Each discovery, each advance, each increase in the sum of human riches, owes its being to the physical and mental travail of the past and the present. By what right then can any one whatever appropriate the least morsel of this immense whole and say — This is mine, not yours?" — Peter Kropotkin We are all standing on the shoulders of giants.
    - auggierose 6y ago
      We are. If you want new giants, paying them properly is a good idea. That proper pay cannot come from the public. Look at the university system, it sucks. It's a difficult problem.
tonyedgecombe 6y ago
>Therefore, most people at Facebook, Google etc. are not creative. I'd disagree with that. Take the average programmer at Google who went to work this morning and wrote a hundred lines of code that didn't already exist. They created something that didn't exist before so must be a creative individual.
- volkk 6y ago
  is this supposed to be sarcasm? in case its not: just because you've created something that didnt exist before doesn't define you as creative. quality and ingenuity also matter
  - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
    Quality and ingenuity are subjective.
    - dhab 6y ago
      also maybe some creative work needs to be coupled with narratives, if intended for others. For the example above, one could look at it as a meaningless blob, and someone else could describe it as a run-time behavior with y-axis representing time. Someone else could have some other interpretation. So a narrative could help it fit it in the intended place
    - dwaltrip 6y ago
      Not arbitrarily so. We don't have to throw our hands in the air and declare them infinitely ineffable.
      - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
        Nor do we have to throw out everything that doesn't meet some arbitrarily high standard.
- auggierose 6y ago
  Obviously it very much depends on the 100 lines of code if that was a creative act or not: var x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0

bergstromm466 6y ago

> incredible creativity at work there at this dutch company I understand where you are coming from, and it might indeed appear that way. But the primary reason they are successful and have been able to make this step is because of the rich inheritance available to the researchers. Most jobs under Capitalism today are soul crushing and exploitative. In my journey of going upstream to try to seek to understand the root of this dysfunction, I came to see that it is due to 1) the Intellectual Property system that creates contrived/artificial scarcity due to outdated economics, and 2) the credit monopoly [the way we are forced to mediate our interactions through capitalist debt protocols/agreements ($, €, etc)]. Our current system is truly the elephant in the room. [1] I really don't think an Intellectual Property Monopoly is the only way creativity can happen. I think if we switched to FLOSS-everything we'd still have all the same tech. In fact I think we'd have more innovation than ever before. More chances for more people to work on things means more experimentation and results, could mean safer and more sustainable developments - and thus more sustainable technologies. Silicon Valley isn't special. I am on here with you other technology enthusiasts and experts because the discussions on innovation do happen here currently. But it's not because it's unique. It's because Silicon Valley and American investors exert power over everyone else in the world through through it's IP system and agreements like TRIPS, together with the US-based money system and US-influenced 'development' organizations like the IMF and the World Bank. [2] Imagine what the world would look like without IP? [1] https://prezi.com/xmzld_-wayho/new-economy-new-wealth/ https://prezi.com/xmzld_-wayho/new-economy-new-wealth/ [2] https://www.jasonhickel.org/blog/2019/10/16/apartheid-in-the-global-governance-system https://www.jasonhickel.org/blog/2019/10/16/apartheid-in-the...

auggierose 6y ago
> because of the rich inheritance available to the researchers And where did that come from? From some open-source foundation?
- bergstromm466 6y ago
  > And where did that come from? From some open-source foundation? From our dead ancestors. “A patent is a device that enables one man to claim special financial rewards for being the last link in the complicated social process that produced the invention.” — Lewis Mumford "Every machine has had the same history — a long record of sleepless nights and of poverty, of disillusions and of joys, of partial improvements discovered by several generations of nameless workers, who have added to the original invention these little nothings, without which the most fertile idea would remain fruitless. More than that: every new invention is a synthesis, the resultant of innumerable inventions which have preceded it in the vast field of mechanics and industry. Science and industry, knowledge and application, discovery and practical realization leading to new discoveries, cunning of brain and of hand, toil of mind and muscle-all work together. Each discovery, each advance, each increase in the sum of human riches, owes its being to the physical and mental travail of the past and the present. By what right then can any one whatever appropriate the least morsel of this immense whole and say — This is mine, not yours?" — Peter Kropotkin We are all standing on the shoulders of giants.
  - auggierose 6y ago
    We are. If you want new giants, paying them properly is a good idea. That proper pay cannot come from the public. Look at the university system, it sucks. It's a difficult problem.

tonyedgecombe 6y ago

>Therefore, most people at Facebook, Google etc. are not creative. I'd disagree with that. Take the average programmer at Google who went to work this morning and wrote a hundred lines of code that didn't already exist. They created something that didn't exist before so must be a creative individual.

volkk 6y ago
is this supposed to be sarcasm? in case its not: just because you've created something that didnt exist before doesn't define you as creative. quality and ingenuity also matter
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  Quality and ingenuity are subjective.
  - dhab 6y ago
    also maybe some creative work needs to be coupled with narratives, if intended for others. For the example above, one could look at it as a meaningless blob, and someone else could describe it as a run-time behavior with y-axis representing time. Someone else could have some other interpretation. So a narrative could help it fit it in the intended place
  - dwaltrip 6y ago
    Not arbitrarily so. We don't have to throw our hands in the air and declare them infinitely ineffable.
    - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
      Nor do we have to throw out everything that doesn't meet some arbitrarily high standard.
auggierose 6y ago
Obviously it very much depends on the 100 lines of code if that was a creative act or not: var x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0 x = 0