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> The US has experienced more deaths from coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) than any other country and has one of the highest cumulative per capita death rate

> The US has experienced more deaths from coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) than any other country and has one of the highest cumulative per capita death rates. Why would you start both the article and the abstract by saying that the US has experienced more death than any other country when the US also has (by far) the largest population of all countries surveyed? Reporting the per capita figure would be enough to make the point that the US did not handle the pandemic well. This way it just sounds like unwarranted self-flagellation.

sagarm 6y ago
It's worth mentioning both. The United States is, after all, not the most populous country in the world.
- pattusk 6y ago
  yes but it's not like they surveyed every country in the world though. I would expect China or India to have a higher number of deaths overall if the data were available. It just does not seem like a meaningful statistic given the sample they are studying.
  - evgen 6y ago
    > I would expect China or India to have a higher number of deaths overall if the data were available. You would be incorrect. Perhaps the reason this death rate was mentioned is because the US is an outlier in both absolute numbers as well as per capita deaths.
    - pattusk 6y ago
      I'll probably get downvoted for this, but anyways: Maybe I should have added reliable to data. I'm highly skeptical of the ~4000 deaths figure reported as the death count for China and I have the sense that the authors of the study were too or they would have included it in their study. As for India, when you factor in rural areas, I don't think the reporting and data would be as reliable as for the US. [1] To go back to my original point, I'm not arguing that the US successfully handled COVID. Nor am I trying to demonize China or India. I'm just saying that the author's decision of foregrounding absolute death toll over per capita is poor and misleading given the sample they used. It could be seen as bad faith on the part of the authors when the per capita number can support their argument just as well. [1] https://www.sbs.com.au/news/india-s-coronavirus-cases-pass-7-million-but-death-rate-remains-mysteriously-low https://www.sbs.com.au/news/india-s-coronavirus-cases-pass-7...
      - Nursie 6y ago
        I'm not sure what you're asking here, both are mentioned in the very first sentence - > The US has experienced more deaths from coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) than any other country and has one of the highest cumulative per capita death rates. Why is that misleading or bad faith?
      - evgen 6y ago
        While I share the skepticism in the numbers from China and India, I believe that if they were anywhere near a similar per capita rate as the US there would be visible evidence. China attacked the problem hard and by all accounts seems to have succeeded. For the most part India seems to have just gotten lucky; maybe India's numbers will be adjusted over time to reveal some rural devastation, but I will want to wait for some real evidence before I group them with the cluster of fuck-up states like the US, Brazil, and UK.
        nickff 6y ago
        China was trucking in loads of urns every day that were more than ten times larger then their reported death rates; doesn't that count as visible evidence?
        evgen 6y ago
        Citation needed. This is the first I have heard of this and given how desperately the current administration wants to pin anything COVID-related on to China I think that this would have been widely publicized if it were actually true.
        gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
        China did originate the virus as far as anyone can tell, they were not forthright with evidence, didn’t shut down travel globally and they seemed to push malign influence through the WHO. It’s not hard to see they have lots of blame and that has nothing to do with the US administration.
    - unishark 6y ago
      The US is not an outlier in per capita deaths. It is at the higher end of the range, especially among developed countries, though many countries have similar rates (such as most of Latin America). And this statement captures all the info one needs, in my opinion. But abstracts are partly about selling the importance of the paper, so there's some leeway in how facts are presented.
    - 0xy 6y ago
      China is not reporting accurate data, so I have no idea how you could possibly say definitively that China's numbers were less than the US on any basis. [1] [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-concealed-extent-of-virus-outbreak-u-s-intelligence-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-con...
      - evgen 6y ago
        We are saying that China's numbers are less than the US because if they were fucking up at a level even close to what the US is going through the evidence would be clearly visible. You cannot hide millions of dead. You can hide the bodies, but not the holes in the population and social structure that comes from losing this many people. So far your only evidence is a report that their case numbers were higher than reported from six months ago. Have anything more recent?
        0xy 6y ago
        There's evidence that deliveries of urns to cemeteries was substantially higher than reported death counts [1], as well as gigantic drops in active subscriber counts in China's telecom providers [2]. I also vehemently disagree "the evidence would be clearly visible". History is littered with genocides on a massive scale that were successfully covered up. We still don't know exactly how many people died in the Holocaust or Holodomor, for example (estimates vary by millions). So this claim that you cannot cover up deaths is clearly false. It's also very likely the US is over-reporting numbers. For example, studies have shown US death certificates have "major errors" the majority of the time [3], and several US states have counted unrelated deaths as "COVID" deaths, including Washington State (later partially corrected) [4]. I also disagree with your claim that evidence of China's data manipulation does not count because it's 'six months old', you can't wave away evidence like that. [1] https://nationalpost.com/news/world/lines-of-urns-in-wuhan-prompt-questions-of-chinas-pandemic-death-toll https://nationalpost.com/news/world/lines-of-urns-in-wuhan-p... [2] https://www.developingtelecoms.com/telecom-business/operator-news/9361-chinese-operators-see-subscriber-numbers-drop.html https://www.developingtelecoms.com/telecom-business/operator... [3] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/04/25/coronavirus-death-toll-hard-track-1-3-death-certificates-wrong/3020778001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/04/2... [4] https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/1600/coronavirus/data-tables/ChangingCriteriaUsedtoReportDeathsReCOVID.pdf https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/1600/coronavirus/...
- KMag 6y ago
  > It's worth mentioning both. The United States is, after all, not the most populous country in the world. The GP was arguing that per-capita deaths should replace total deaths. In context, your argument is "Total deaths are a useful metric and should be included, because the US is not the most populous country." Maybe it's true, but the argument is non-sequitur. As we all know, the real reason total deaths is a useful metric is that pancakes are delicious. Also, the GP was explicitly arguing that the US is the largest of the 18 surveyed countries, which gives an implicit nod to the US not being the largest country in the world. Edit: changed OP to GP.
wonnage 6y ago
India and China both have fewer deaths. The US is also a large and sparsely populated country. Best to suck it up and admit that the US has failed in every aspect and measure to respond to this pandemic.
- vinay427 6y ago
  OP did literally say that they didn't handle the pandemic well. I don't think they're trying to avoid that. If anything, per capita figures would make this even more clear when comparing with the current situation in India and China.
- 0xy 6y ago
  Sure, if you read China's faked [1] coronavirus data put out for propaganda purposes. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-concealed-extent-of-virus-outbreak-u-s-intelligence-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-con...
xenadu02 6y ago
> has one of the highest cumulative per capita death rates The paper is entirely about per-capita death rates.

sagarm 6y ago

It's worth mentioning both. The United States is, after all, not the most populous country in the world.

pattusk 6y ago
yes but it's not like they surveyed every country in the world though. I would expect China or India to have a higher number of deaths overall if the data were available. It just does not seem like a meaningful statistic given the sample they are studying.
- evgen 6y ago
  > I would expect China or India to have a higher number of deaths overall if the data were available. You would be incorrect. Perhaps the reason this death rate was mentioned is because the US is an outlier in both absolute numbers as well as per capita deaths.
  - pattusk 6y ago
    I'll probably get downvoted for this, but anyways: Maybe I should have added reliable to data. I'm highly skeptical of the ~4000 deaths figure reported as the death count for China and I have the sense that the authors of the study were too or they would have included it in their study. As for India, when you factor in rural areas, I don't think the reporting and data would be as reliable as for the US. [1] To go back to my original point, I'm not arguing that the US successfully handled COVID. Nor am I trying to demonize China or India. I'm just saying that the author's decision of foregrounding absolute death toll over per capita is poor and misleading given the sample they used. It could be seen as bad faith on the part of the authors when the per capita number can support their argument just as well. [1] https://www.sbs.com.au/news/india-s-coronavirus-cases-pass-7-million-but-death-rate-remains-mysteriously-low https://www.sbs.com.au/news/india-s-coronavirus-cases-pass-7...
    - Nursie 6y ago
      I'm not sure what you're asking here, both are mentioned in the very first sentence - > The US has experienced more deaths from coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) than any other country and has one of the highest cumulative per capita death rates. Why is that misleading or bad faith?
    - evgen 6y ago
      While I share the skepticism in the numbers from China and India, I believe that if they were anywhere near a similar per capita rate as the US there would be visible evidence. China attacked the problem hard and by all accounts seems to have succeeded. For the most part India seems to have just gotten lucky; maybe India's numbers will be adjusted over time to reveal some rural devastation, but I will want to wait for some real evidence before I group them with the cluster of fuck-up states like the US, Brazil, and UK.
      - nickff 6y ago
        China was trucking in loads of urns every day that were more than ten times larger then their reported death rates; doesn't that count as visible evidence?
        evgen 6y ago
        Citation needed. This is the first I have heard of this and given how desperately the current administration wants to pin anything COVID-related on to China I think that this would have been widely publicized if it were actually true.
        gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
        China did originate the virus as far as anyone can tell, they were not forthright with evidence, didn’t shut down travel globally and they seemed to push malign influence through the WHO. It’s not hard to see they have lots of blame and that has nothing to do with the US administration.
  - unishark 6y ago
    The US is not an outlier in per capita deaths. It is at the higher end of the range, especially among developed countries, though many countries have similar rates (such as most of Latin America). And this statement captures all the info one needs, in my opinion. But abstracts are partly about selling the importance of the paper, so there's some leeway in how facts are presented.
  - 0xy 6y ago
    China is not reporting accurate data, so I have no idea how you could possibly say definitively that China's numbers were less than the US on any basis. [1] [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-concealed-extent-of-virus-outbreak-u-s-intelligence-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-con...
    - evgen 6y ago
      We are saying that China's numbers are less than the US because if they were fucking up at a level even close to what the US is going through the evidence would be clearly visible. You cannot hide millions of dead. You can hide the bodies, but not the holes in the population and social structure that comes from losing this many people. So far your only evidence is a report that their case numbers were higher than reported from six months ago. Have anything more recent?
      - 0xy 6y ago
        There's evidence that deliveries of urns to cemeteries was substantially higher than reported death counts [1], as well as gigantic drops in active subscriber counts in China's telecom providers [2]. I also vehemently disagree "the evidence would be clearly visible". History is littered with genocides on a massive scale that were successfully covered up. We still don't know exactly how many people died in the Holocaust or Holodomor, for example (estimates vary by millions). So this claim that you cannot cover up deaths is clearly false. It's also very likely the US is over-reporting numbers. For example, studies have shown US death certificates have "major errors" the majority of the time [3], and several US states have counted unrelated deaths as "COVID" deaths, including Washington State (later partially corrected) [4]. I also disagree with your claim that evidence of China's data manipulation does not count because it's 'six months old', you can't wave away evidence like that. [1] https://nationalpost.com/news/world/lines-of-urns-in-wuhan-prompt-questions-of-chinas-pandemic-death-toll https://nationalpost.com/news/world/lines-of-urns-in-wuhan-p... [2] https://www.developingtelecoms.com/telecom-business/operator-news/9361-chinese-operators-see-subscriber-numbers-drop.html https://www.developingtelecoms.com/telecom-business/operator... [3] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/04/25/coronavirus-death-toll-hard-track-1-3-death-certificates-wrong/3020778001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/04/2... [4] https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/1600/coronavirus/data-tables/ChangingCriteriaUsedtoReportDeathsReCOVID.pdf https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/1600/coronavirus/...
KMag 6y ago
> It's worth mentioning both. The United States is, after all, not the most populous country in the world. The GP was arguing that per-capita deaths should replace total deaths. In context, your argument is "Total deaths are a useful metric and should be included, because the US is not the most populous country." Maybe it's true, but the argument is non-sequitur. As we all know, the real reason total deaths is a useful metric is that pancakes are delicious. Also, the GP was explicitly arguing that the US is the largest of the 18 surveyed countries, which gives an implicit nod to the US not being the largest country in the world. Edit: changed OP to GP.

wonnage 6y ago

India and China both have fewer deaths. The US is also a large and sparsely populated country. Best to suck it up and admit that the US has failed in every aspect and measure to respond to this pandemic.

vinay427 6y ago
OP did literally say that they didn't handle the pandemic well. I don't think they're trying to avoid that. If anything, per capita figures would make this even more clear when comparing with the current situation in India and China.
0xy 6y ago
Sure, if you read China's faked [1] coronavirus data put out for propaganda purposes. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-concealed-extent-of-virus-outbreak-u-s-intelligence-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-con...

xenadu02 6y ago

> has one of the highest cumulative per capita death rates The paper is entirely about per-capita death rates.