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Every time this topic comes up on HN I feel like the only person who does side projects because I enjoy them as a hobby. Learning for the job is distantly secon

Every time this topic comes up on HN I feel like the only person who does side projects because I enjoy them as a hobby. Learning for the job is distantly secondary, and getting my next job is tertiary. They're perks to something I'm doing anyway, not justifications for doing it. Yeah, I program at work, but the tasks I get at a software job don't scratch the itch that got me into tech in the first place. Just like how most workers in "creative" fields don't get paid to do the interesting things that first attracted them. They're stuck using their arts degrees to write marketing copy instead of their dream novel, or they became a civil engineer to design inspiring architecture but their day job is trying to update someone else's vision to include the safety features the designer didn't leave room for. I get that lots of people get their fill of technology at their job and don't want to see a screen when they get home. Live the life that makes you happy. I'm just boggled at how many people appear to find it unimaginable and unrelatable that a technologist likes technology enough to mess with it for fun, even after work.

ck425 6y ago
> I'm just boggled at how many people appear to find it unimaginable and unrelatable that a technologist likes technology enough to mess with it for fun, even after work. It's not that I can't understand it. I don't have that urge personally but I can see where it comes from and if that makes you happy go for it! The reason I personally get so defensive and anti side project is because as someone who's very defensive of their non-work time (due to spending it on other productive hobbies that bring more joy into my life than anything else) I've experienced a lot of colleagues/managers who have tried pressure or belittle me into doing side projects. It's been implied that I'm not a 'real' engineer or that I can't be successful in my career if I don't. And frankly I resent that attitude because it's bullshit and it tries to take away time from the things that make my life truly joyful. As you say do what makes you happy, side projects or not. Unfortunately a lot of folk on the side projects side don't/won't accept them as optional if you want to be seen as a competent engineer.
- spiffytech 6y ago
  I think side projects can open career doors that you wouldn't otherwise have, and not doing side projects can close some doors. There is a probabilistic value of pursuing those doors and a cost to the time spent doing so, and it's fine to decide it is or isn't worth it. I'd happily do side projects even if there was zero chance they'd help my career. Two of the best engineers I've ever worked with did basically nothing on the side that resembled a technical side project. The worst engineer I ever worked with also did no side projects. And I knew brilliant engineers who were big into things like the Hacker Cup or aerial robotics, just for fun. It's tempting to think that if we ourselves are competent, people who act similarly must also be competent. But the longer my career goes on, the less weight I place on seeing someone does or does not do side projects.
- michannne 6y ago
  IME, once you get your foot in the door (in any career, not just software), side projects, hobbies and such become irrelevant to securing a job compared to real world experience. All that really matters in the initial stages of career progression is to prove to potential employers that you can do whatever work they may ask you to do. I think some employers do like to see initiative, but that can be conveyed during an interview, you don't necessarily need a starred out Git repo to demonstrate you are passionate about software, and of course, a Git project is not enough to show employers you are passionate about software.
- heleninboodler 6y ago
  I think your attitude is right, and you just have to ignore the "what?!?! no side projects!?!?" people. I've known plenty of extremely competent engineers who either don't do side projects or simply don't want to invite their coworkers into talking about their personal lives. I do a ton of small side projects and I haven't been asked about any of them in interviews, nor have I advertised my github on my resume or anything like that. Out of all 9 members of my current team, the only ones I can remember ever talking about any side projects are the dev manager, who is obviously addicted to setting up tech stacks like he did when he was a developer (we recently compared notes about our experience using prometheus and grafana on home servers, for example), and one guy whose side project is a heavy metal band. Everyone else? Nothing I've been told about. Maybe they occupy their time with being a parent, or SCCA racing, or mountain climbing, or building dollhouses; I don't know and it's not really my business. I think there's a lot of value in being able to confidently say "yeah, I've got different hobbies <shrug>."
secondcoming 6y ago
I used be like that when I was younger. Hell, I taught myself to program doing this exact thing. But nowadays, I really don't want to spend weekends looking at a monitor all day. Before you know it, you've spent 8 or 10 or whatever hours tinkering away. There's a point where it's not healthy. It'll catch up with you and there's a danger you'll find yourself not having the enthusiasm to do your hobby projects and also your real job.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  I wonder what will catch up with us exactly. A serious question - because I'm by no means young, and I'm still in the "forever tinkering" phase. I wish I could spend 8 or 10 hours on it on a regular basis - but the job that's funding my tinkering is also taking away the time for it.
  - nosianu 6y ago
    I think the point is that most people don't have such amazing genes that spending even more time than just work for decades in front of a monitor does not impact their bodies. The worst part is sitting. I want to move my body, and I sacrificed computer hours. I don't watch any TV at all already either, so there's nothing I could move from that time-budget to programming projects.
  - secondcoming 6y ago
    Life, other priorities.
Reedx 6y ago
You're far from alone, it just seems like as hobby/passion programmers tend to spend more time programming and less time posting about work life balance on Twitter or HN. So naturally they have a quieter, smaller voice in these kind of discussions.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  Not sure if that's true. The (small, local, biased) sample I have suggests the reverse. People I know who program only on the job generally don't participate in the wider programmer community, and don't frequent discussion sites, unless they're looking for something directly job-related.
- gosukiwi 6y ago
  I also think that passionate programmers are way more rare. We are used to being weird so we don't care :)
TeMPOraL 6y ago
Exactly this. I do my side projects for personal development and enjoyment. It's my opportunity to grow in whatever direction I like, and I'm not going to let my job dictate what kind of side projects I'm taking on. If that results in skills useful at work, or for finding work, that's a nice but entirely secondary benefit. The more important benefit is burnout prevention - because I too "don't get paid to do the interesting things that first attracted" me to software, or science and technology in general. > I'm just boggled at how many people appear to find it unimaginable and unrelatable that a technologist likes technology enough to mess with it for fun, even after work. Me too. I sometimes wonder if I'm not missing out, but try as I might, I don't enjoy the "normal" stuff as much as I enjoy intellectual stimulation. I also sometimes wonder if this isn't because my eyes just don't get tired from screens. I can look at computer screens 16 hours straight, and my eyes don't get dry or itchy. I had co-workers who had to use saline drops at work, and I can understand if they didn't want to look at any screen when they got home.
- godshatter 6y ago
  I'm the same. I've been working for my current employer for over 30 years. I'm not doing side projects to impress recruiters. It's an extenuation of the love of programming I picked up when I was first exposed to a Tandy Level I at my local junior high school. I enjoy going hiking or going swimming in a lake or river or going to movies with friends when that was still a thing, but it's mostly experiencing, whereas programming side projects is creating. I much prefer creating over experiencing.
- spiffytech 6y ago
  > I also sometimes wonder if this isn't because my eyes just don't get tired from screens I don't have the eye fatigue, either. My hunch is it's because I turn my display brightness way down, down far enough that coworkers insist they can't see my screen when I show them something. It seems like colleagues keep their screens near full brightness. I could imagine that being tough to look at all day.
seph-reed 6y ago
It's really too bad how many people are in tech for the money. I think that was kind of the beginning of the end for the golden era.
sixdimensional 6y ago
My only problem is I spend so much energy on work, I don't have it when I go home, no matter how excited or interested I am in the side projects. I realize that's also a personal problem - poor time/resource allocation - not allocating a proper amount of time/energy to work vs. personal projects. However, I can say, doing a full time, involved job and giving it all my attention tends to use up all the cycles. Is that true for other people too?
- _alex_ 6y ago
  I go through cycles. I'll have a long stretch where I come home and I'm just fried and can't do anything that takes critical thinking. And then I'll go through a period where either work is more boring or I've found something to do on the side that's so exciting to me that I have tons of energy and focus on side projects. One thing I've been doing for the last 2ish years is having side projects that are really far removed from my work. So for example a lot of my work is infrastructure automation and related problems, so I've been doing some side projects learning basic electronics and hacking on microcontrollers. Figuring out why my I'm getting weird readings on a temperature sensor is a great break from figuring out why my load balancer didn't do the right thing.
  - sixdimensional 6y ago
    Thank you for sharing your perspective! Good idea on doing something different from the daily job to generate the energy/drive. I should do that more often.
  - stonedartist 6y ago
    After reading your comment I felt like I was reading mine! I've been working on infrastructure automation too, and recently purchased a microcontroller kit to hack it and mess around with it. Just connecting the microcontroller and turning on a LED light is satisfying sometimes. Right now I'm in that cycle where I hesitate to look at screens after work.
dorkwood 6y ago
You're not alone. To me, side projects aren't a means to an end -- they are the end. They are the entire point. They're what I'd spend all my time on if I wasn't forced to work a day job, because the act of creating is what I enjoy the most.
gosukiwi 6y ago
This. I had projects before I started working, and still have projects now. They are a hobby. Just that. When I don't want to code outside of work, I dont. When I want, I do. I don't feel guilt for not completing something. Most of them fail or are never finished, yet still I enjoy them, and I've learned a lot from them. > I'm just boggled at how many people appear to find it unimaginable and unrelatable that a technologist likes technology enough to mess with it for fun, even after work. I do get their point though, they feel bad because they are not one of those. But that's just the way things are. There aren't many people who got into tech because they REALLY like it. Not because it's a "good" job or because it's the lesser evil. And by that I don't mean the people who only code at work or learned about tech later in life are bad developers, not at all. Nevertheless, they are the vast majority and they are quite different than the passionate young kid who codes for shits and giggles. It doesn't help than they are socially pressured to be like that. They end up hating it. Like when you have a brother/sister that is better than you at something and your parents always say "WHY CANT YOU BE LIKE YOUR BROTHER/SISTER".
eric_cc 6y ago
The problem for me comes down to screen time. I spend so much screen time at work programming that I don't think it's healthy to do the same thing as a hobby.

ck425 6y ago

> I'm just boggled at how many people appear to find it unimaginable and unrelatable that a technologist likes technology enough to mess with it for fun, even after work. It's not that I can't understand it. I don't have that urge personally but I can see where it comes from and if that makes you happy go for it! The reason I personally get so defensive and anti side project is because as someone who's very defensive of their non-work time (due to spending it on other productive hobbies that bring more joy into my life than anything else) I've experienced a lot of colleagues/managers who have tried pressure or belittle me into doing side projects. It's been implied that I'm not a 'real' engineer or that I can't be successful in my career if I don't. And frankly I resent that attitude because it's bullshit and it tries to take away time from the things that make my life truly joyful. As you say do what makes you happy, side projects or not. Unfortunately a lot of folk on the side projects side don't/won't accept them as optional if you want to be seen as a competent engineer.

spiffytech 6y ago
I think side projects can open career doors that you wouldn't otherwise have, and not doing side projects can close some doors. There is a probabilistic value of pursuing those doors and a cost to the time spent doing so, and it's fine to decide it is or isn't worth it. I'd happily do side projects even if there was zero chance they'd help my career. Two of the best engineers I've ever worked with did basically nothing on the side that resembled a technical side project. The worst engineer I ever worked with also did no side projects. And I knew brilliant engineers who were big into things like the Hacker Cup or aerial robotics, just for fun. It's tempting to think that if we ourselves are competent, people who act similarly must also be competent. But the longer my career goes on, the less weight I place on seeing someone does or does not do side projects.
michannne 6y ago
IME, once you get your foot in the door (in any career, not just software), side projects, hobbies and such become irrelevant to securing a job compared to real world experience. All that really matters in the initial stages of career progression is to prove to potential employers that you can do whatever work they may ask you to do. I think some employers do like to see initiative, but that can be conveyed during an interview, you don't necessarily need a starred out Git repo to demonstrate you are passionate about software, and of course, a Git project is not enough to show employers you are passionate about software.
heleninboodler 6y ago
I think your attitude is right, and you just have to ignore the "what?!?! no side projects!?!?" people. I've known plenty of extremely competent engineers who either don't do side projects or simply don't want to invite their coworkers into talking about their personal lives. I do a ton of small side projects and I haven't been asked about any of them in interviews, nor have I advertised my github on my resume or anything like that. Out of all 9 members of my current team, the only ones I can remember ever talking about any side projects are the dev manager, who is obviously addicted to setting up tech stacks like he did when he was a developer (we recently compared notes about our experience using prometheus and grafana on home servers, for example), and one guy whose side project is a heavy metal band. Everyone else? Nothing I've been told about. Maybe they occupy their time with being a parent, or SCCA racing, or mountain climbing, or building dollhouses; I don't know and it's not really my business. I think there's a lot of value in being able to confidently say "yeah, I've got different hobbies <shrug>."

secondcoming 6y ago

I used be like that when I was younger. Hell, I taught myself to program doing this exact thing. But nowadays, I really don't want to spend weekends looking at a monitor all day. Before you know it, you've spent 8 or 10 or whatever hours tinkering away. There's a point where it's not healthy. It'll catch up with you and there's a danger you'll find yourself not having the enthusiasm to do your hobby projects and also your real job.

TeMPOraL 6y ago
I wonder what will catch up with us exactly. A serious question - because I'm by no means young, and I'm still in the "forever tinkering" phase. I wish I could spend 8 or 10 hours on it on a regular basis - but the job that's funding my tinkering is also taking away the time for it.
- nosianu 6y ago
  I think the point is that most people don't have such amazing genes that spending even more time than just work for decades in front of a monitor does not impact their bodies. The worst part is sitting. I want to move my body, and I sacrificed computer hours. I don't watch any TV at all already either, so there's nothing I could move from that time-budget to programming projects.
- secondcoming 6y ago
  Life, other priorities.

Reedx 6y ago

You're far from alone, it just seems like as hobby/passion programmers tend to spend more time programming and less time posting about work life balance on Twitter or HN. So naturally they have a quieter, smaller voice in these kind of discussions.

TeMPOraL 6y ago
Not sure if that's true. The (small, local, biased) sample I have suggests the reverse. People I know who program only on the job generally don't participate in the wider programmer community, and don't frequent discussion sites, unless they're looking for something directly job-related.
gosukiwi 6y ago
I also think that passionate programmers are way more rare. We are used to being weird so we don't care :)

TeMPOraL 6y ago

Exactly this. I do my side projects for personal development and enjoyment. It's my opportunity to grow in whatever direction I like, and I'm not going to let my job dictate what kind of side projects I'm taking on. If that results in skills useful at work, or for finding work, that's a nice but entirely secondary benefit. The more important benefit is burnout prevention - because I too "don't get paid to do the interesting things that first attracted" me to software, or science and technology in general. > I'm just boggled at how many people appear to find it unimaginable and unrelatable that a technologist likes technology enough to mess with it for fun, even after work. Me too. I sometimes wonder if I'm not missing out, but try as I might, I don't enjoy the "normal" stuff as much as I enjoy intellectual stimulation. I also sometimes wonder if this isn't because my eyes just don't get tired from screens. I can look at computer screens 16 hours straight, and my eyes don't get dry or itchy. I had co-workers who had to use saline drops at work, and I can understand if they didn't want to look at any screen when they got home.

godshatter 6y ago
I'm the same. I've been working for my current employer for over 30 years. I'm not doing side projects to impress recruiters. It's an extenuation of the love of programming I picked up when I was first exposed to a Tandy Level I at my local junior high school. I enjoy going hiking or going swimming in a lake or river or going to movies with friends when that was still a thing, but it's mostly experiencing, whereas programming side projects is creating. I much prefer creating over experiencing.
spiffytech 6y ago
> I also sometimes wonder if this isn't because my eyes just don't get tired from screens I don't have the eye fatigue, either. My hunch is it's because I turn my display brightness way down, down far enough that coworkers insist they can't see my screen when I show them something. It seems like colleagues keep their screens near full brightness. I could imagine that being tough to look at all day.

seph-reed 6y ago

It's really too bad how many people are in tech for the money. I think that was kind of the beginning of the end for the golden era.

sixdimensional 6y ago

My only problem is I spend so much energy on work, I don't have it when I go home, no matter how excited or interested I am in the side projects. I realize that's also a personal problem - poor time/resource allocation - not allocating a proper amount of time/energy to work vs. personal projects. However, I can say, doing a full time, involved job and giving it all my attention tends to use up all the cycles. Is that true for other people too?

_alex_ 6y ago
I go through cycles. I'll have a long stretch where I come home and I'm just fried and can't do anything that takes critical thinking. And then I'll go through a period where either work is more boring or I've found something to do on the side that's so exciting to me that I have tons of energy and focus on side projects. One thing I've been doing for the last 2ish years is having side projects that are really far removed from my work. So for example a lot of my work is infrastructure automation and related problems, so I've been doing some side projects learning basic electronics and hacking on microcontrollers. Figuring out why my I'm getting weird readings on a temperature sensor is a great break from figuring out why my load balancer didn't do the right thing.
- sixdimensional 6y ago
  Thank you for sharing your perspective! Good idea on doing something different from the daily job to generate the energy/drive. I should do that more often.
- stonedartist 6y ago
  After reading your comment I felt like I was reading mine! I've been working on infrastructure automation too, and recently purchased a microcontroller kit to hack it and mess around with it. Just connecting the microcontroller and turning on a LED light is satisfying sometimes. Right now I'm in that cycle where I hesitate to look at screens after work.

dorkwood 6y ago

You're not alone. To me, side projects aren't a means to an end -- they are the end. They are the entire point. They're what I'd spend all my time on if I wasn't forced to work a day job, because the act of creating is what I enjoy the most.

gosukiwi 6y ago

This. I had projects before I started working, and still have projects now. They are a hobby. Just that. When I don't want to code outside of work, I dont. When I want, I do. I don't feel guilt for not completing something. Most of them fail or are never finished, yet still I enjoy them, and I've learned a lot from them. > I'm just boggled at how many people appear to find it unimaginable and unrelatable that a technologist likes technology enough to mess with it for fun, even after work. I do get their point though, they feel bad because they are not one of those. But that's just the way things are. There aren't many people who got into tech because they REALLY like it. Not because it's a "good" job or because it's the lesser evil. And by that I don't mean the people who only code at work or learned about tech later in life are bad developers, not at all. Nevertheless, they are the vast majority and they are quite different than the passionate young kid who codes for shits and giggles. It doesn't help than they are socially pressured to be like that. They end up hating it. Like when you have a brother/sister that is better than you at something and your parents always say "WHY CANT YOU BE LIKE YOUR BROTHER/SISTER".

eric_cc 6y ago

The problem for me comes down to screen time. I spend so much screen time at work programming that I don't think it's healthy to do the same thing as a hobby.