6 ms·

Are neck gaiters worse than no mask at all?

51 points by carabiner 6y ago

blakesterz 6y ago
"Even Fischer expressed dismay at the media’s coverage of his work. “Our intent was not to say this mask doesn’t work, or never use neck gaiters,” he told the New York Times. “This was not the main part of the paper.” Bottom line? Cover your face. Overall, research shows that two layers of anything are better than one and that fit matters — no face covering will be effective if it’s not snug on your face."
- thih9 6y ago
  Why have you quoted this bottom line?
skrowl 6y ago
There's a lot of FUD out there about this, but N95 masks are literally called N95 because they're 95% effective at filtering particle down to their size limit of 0.3 microns. Covid-19 particles range from 0.06 microns to 0.14. The largest Covid-19 particles can fit 2 wide straight through a N95 mask and the cloth masks that most people you see wearing aren't anywhere close to the spacing size of a N95 mask. Saying neck gaiters are less effective at stopping Covid-19 is like saying you're safer from getting a bucket of sand thrown on you behind your screen door than I am standing behind my chain link fence. In the end, the sand is much, much smaller than either opening, so it goes right through both. The only real benefit of masks at all is catching water droplets when you sneeze, and such droplets are caught roughly equally well with the common cloth masks people wear and neck gaiters, from what I've read. TLDR - Your neck gaiter is probably sufficient, especially if you wear it double layer / folded over.
- baxtr 6y ago
  That's the theory. At the same time, in physics and generally in science any theory must be verified through experiments (rather not falsified, but that's a different story). I'd love to see some experimental data on your assertions.
- curtis3389 6y ago
  In my mind, I see the screen door doing better than the chain link fence.
  - tomjakubowski 6y ago
    Yeah. Consider how much more light a chain link fence lets in than a screen door.
- sleepybrett 6y ago
  If this is the study I remember reading months ago they found some strange results from the gaiter, it was effectively WORSE than wearing no mask. Essentially it aresolized droplets that were caught in other masks, at least that was the common read of their findings. I have yet to read this followup.
  - gallamine 6y ago
    Because of the confusion between a results and a methods paper: https://twitter.com/joelindsey/status/1293593320657162243?s=20 https://twitter.com/joelindsey/status/1293593320657162243?s=...
- schoen 6y ago
  > The largest Covid-19 particles can fit 2 wide straight through a N95 mask. Do they tend to float free in the air? I thought at least the optimistic take on masks was that much of the COVID virus that an infected person sheds isn't loose individual particles, but inside respiratory droplets that are much larger than the virus itself. Like if I'm spilling lemonade, the sugar molecules in the lemonade are extremely small, but most of them are in solution in the liquid and not very much sugar would tend to pass through something that didn't allow much liquid to pass through. So I thought that while the masks can't block the virus particles, they can often block liquids in which most of the virus particles are present. edit: the USA Today article that someone else posted in this thread suggests this is broadly right, e.g. > The virus attaches to water droplets or aerosols (i.e. really small droplets) that are generated by breathing, talking, coughing, etc. These consist of water, mucus protein and other biological material and are all larger than 1 micron. > “Breathing and talking generate particles around 1 micron in size, which will be collected by N95 respirator filters with very high efficiency,” said Lisa Brosseau, a retired professor of environmental and occupational health sciences who spent her career researching respiratory protection.
  - CydeWeys 6y ago
    Besides all that, it's obviously false because if it were true then masks wouldn't work, and yet empirically, emphatically, demonstrably, masks do work. Like, every single person in a hospital setting treating COVID-19 patients would be immediately coming down with it if their protective equipment were worthless. But that's not what we observe at all, hence it's not correct.
    - jtbayly 6y ago
      Saying "empirically, emphatically, demonstrably, masks do work" in the context of talking about N95 masks might make sense. I hope you aren't implying that because hospital workers are protected by N95 masks that we therefore know beyond a shadow of a doubt that all the other masks people are wearing are effective. After all, the bigger context is the question about gators.
      - 6y ago
- ksenzee 6y ago
  Please check your facts before posting. This is misinformation that's been flying around the internet, and it's going to harm people. There's a rundown here: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/11/fact-check-n-95-filters-not-too-large-stop-covid-19-particles/5343537002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/11/fac...
- mike_d 6y ago
  This isn't true. Fact check: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/11/fact-check-n-95-filters-not-too-large-stop-covid-19-particles/5343537002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/11/fac...
  - tsurkoprt 6y ago
    Really, USA Today is your fact checker ?
    - Xylakant 6y ago
      That fact check is actually well written and explains the relevant underlying principles of how n95 masks work. It cites experts in their fields and gives a complete list of sources used, so it’s again verifiable. As far as my understanding of these things goes goes, the explanation holds up. Whether it’s published in USA Today or not does not impact that.
- 01100011 6y ago
  Does the mask need to present a physical barrier to the virus particles? Is there any electrostatic force, for instance, which would trap viruses as they passed close to the mask material?
  - Symmetry 6y ago
    Yes. Also N95 filter .15 micron particles better than .3 micron particles because their motion tends to be more Brownian and less ballistic, leading to more particle/masks interactions where they can get caught.
    - 01100011 6y ago
      Was that a 'yes' to the first question or the second? Thanks in either case for the reply.
      - Symmetry 6y ago
        Oh, the second.
mike_d 6y ago
While we are on the subject of ineffective masks, please consider reaching out to anyone you know who works at Esty and pressure them to ban "mesh face masks." Esty is unfortunately being abused to peddle what is effectively a 5 year olds "I'm not touching you" response to mask requirements.
- FriendlyNormie 6y ago
  Everyone like you needs to die.
- postalrat 6y ago
  Mesh face masks are stupid. But requiring people to wear something with zero formal requirements is also pretty darn stupid.
- CydeWeys 6y ago
  I'm no anti-masker, but aren't there legitimate uses for mesh masks? Costumes? Raves? Cosplay? I mean, maybe not during the pandemic, but afterwards? Maybe only the ones display anti-mask messages on them should be banned, and then the other masks that aren't ineffective protection should merely have a warning message displayed to that effect.
  - amagumori 6y ago
    A CoC type clause requiring mesh mask listings to be posted with a “Not a Covid preventative mask” type notice seems like it’d make sense. Idk how the implementation of that requirement would go though.
    - ianferrel 6y ago
      The issue isn't that buyers think they'll prevent Covid. The issue is that buyers know they're useless against Covid and buy them to thumb their nose at mask requirements.
  - mike_d 6y ago
    You used to be able to buy a "solvent trap" which made the job of cleaning a firearm a lot less messy. But 99% of the people who bought them drilled a few holes and converted them to makeshift silencers. Even though they have a perfectly legitimate use case none of the major online platforms will let you list one for sale.
Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
Does Betteridge's Law of Headlines apply still here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines
sunkenvicar 6y ago
Its a no-brainer to wear a surgical or N95 mask instead of homemade pantyhose on your face.
aaroninsf 6y ago
TL;DR from when I researched this the first time this came around: • a properly-fit mask intended as a mask, is always best • a COTTON buff is vastly better than nothing, and can be as effective as a cotton mask • don't use transparent spandex, it's not effective* * unless your intent is to conform in appearance only to own the libs
osamagirl69 6y ago
It is nice to see a well reasoned response to a paper for once. It is really a shame how some fields (cold fusion, climate change, now it is anything related to coronaviruses) are so loaded that one cannot published a their research without worrying about how it will be misconstrued by the public
Symmetry 6y ago
Apparently MIT medical also has a good article on how to choose mask materials. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24757619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24757619
- forgotmysn 6y ago
  i dont know if you meant to, but you just linked to this thread
- Symmetry 6y ago
  The link I meant to give. https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-updates/2020/08/how-do-i-choose-cloth-face-mask https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-updates/2020/08/how-do-i-ch...
hamolton 6y ago
For fields with a large amount of public interest, are there standards for saying what evidence is actionable and what isn't? It feels like clinical research is the only science that has a clear pipeline between an experiment being completed and evidence accepted as fact in practice.
verst 6y ago
No. Neck gaiters are not worse than no mask at all. This experiment was discussed many times. There were several flaws in the analysis. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/neck-gaiters-covid-19/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/neck-gaiters-covid-19/
nunez 6y ago
So I initially used Buffs as face masks because they looked cooler than regular face masks and also happened to be more widely available. After getting my first buff, I noticed that I failed the "blow test" (blowing out a candle with your mask on) when I used a single layer of the buff but _barely_ passed when I folded it over itself. However, the Buff was quite uncomfortable when I did this, so I looked into getting a proper cloth mask. As it happens, the cloth mask is more comfortable and WAY more effective at filtration! I now use the Buffs on my head when I work out. They're great at absorbing sweat; not as great for preventing the spread of coronavirus. Unfortunately, football coaches and players still use gaiters on the field (at least the ones I've seen when I've seen games at bars and stuff).

51 points by carabiner 6y ago

"Even Fischer expressed dismay at the media’s coverage of his work. “Our intent was not to say this mask doesn’t work, or never use neck gaiters,” he told the New York Times. “This was not the main part of the paper.” Bottom line? Cover your face. Overall, research shows that two layers of anything are better than one and that fit matters — no face covering will be effective if it’s not snug on your face."

thih9 6y ago
Why have you quoted this bottom line?

skrowl 6y ago

There's a lot of FUD out there about this, but N95 masks are literally called N95 because they're 95% effective at filtering particle down to their size limit of 0.3 microns. Covid-19 particles range from 0.06 microns to 0.14. The largest Covid-19 particles can fit 2 wide straight through a N95 mask and the cloth masks that most people you see wearing aren't anywhere close to the spacing size of a N95 mask. Saying neck gaiters are less effective at stopping Covid-19 is like saying you're safer from getting a bucket of sand thrown on you behind your screen door than I am standing behind my chain link fence. In the end, the sand is much, much smaller than either opening, so it goes right through both. The only real benefit of masks at all is catching water droplets when you sneeze, and such droplets are caught roughly equally well with the common cloth masks people wear and neck gaiters, from what I've read. TLDR - Your neck gaiter is probably sufficient, especially if you wear it double layer / folded over.

baxtr 6y ago
That's the theory. At the same time, in physics and generally in science any theory must be verified through experiments (rather not falsified, but that's a different story). I'd love to see some experimental data on your assertions.
curtis3389 6y ago
In my mind, I see the screen door doing better than the chain link fence.
- tomjakubowski 6y ago
  Yeah. Consider how much more light a chain link fence lets in than a screen door.
sleepybrett 6y ago
If this is the study I remember reading months ago they found some strange results from the gaiter, it was effectively WORSE than wearing no mask. Essentially it aresolized droplets that were caught in other masks, at least that was the common read of their findings. I have yet to read this followup.
- gallamine 6y ago
  Because of the confusion between a results and a methods paper: https://twitter.com/joelindsey/status/1293593320657162243?s=20 https://twitter.com/joelindsey/status/1293593320657162243?s=...
schoen 6y ago
> The largest Covid-19 particles can fit 2 wide straight through a N95 mask. Do they tend to float free in the air? I thought at least the optimistic take on masks was that much of the COVID virus that an infected person sheds isn't loose individual particles, but inside respiratory droplets that are much larger than the virus itself. Like if I'm spilling lemonade, the sugar molecules in the lemonade are extremely small, but most of them are in solution in the liquid and not very much sugar would tend to pass through something that didn't allow much liquid to pass through. So I thought that while the masks can't block the virus particles, they can often block liquids in which most of the virus particles are present. edit: the USA Today article that someone else posted in this thread suggests this is broadly right, e.g. > The virus attaches to water droplets or aerosols (i.e. really small droplets) that are generated by breathing, talking, coughing, etc. These consist of water, mucus protein and other biological material and are all larger than 1 micron. > “Breathing and talking generate particles around 1 micron in size, which will be collected by N95 respirator filters with very high efficiency,” said Lisa Brosseau, a retired professor of environmental and occupational health sciences who spent her career researching respiratory protection.
- CydeWeys 6y ago
  Besides all that, it's obviously false because if it were true then masks wouldn't work, and yet empirically, emphatically, demonstrably, masks do work. Like, every single person in a hospital setting treating COVID-19 patients would be immediately coming down with it if their protective equipment were worthless. But that's not what we observe at all, hence it's not correct.
  - jtbayly 6y ago
    Saying "empirically, emphatically, demonstrably, masks do work" in the context of talking about N95 masks might make sense. I hope you aren't implying that because hospital workers are protected by N95 masks that we therefore know beyond a shadow of a doubt that all the other masks people are wearing are effective. After all, the bigger context is the question about gators.
    - 6y ago
ksenzee 6y ago
Please check your facts before posting. This is misinformation that's been flying around the internet, and it's going to harm people. There's a rundown here: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/11/fact-check-n-95-filters-not-too-large-stop-covid-19-particles/5343537002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/11/fac...
mike_d 6y ago
This isn't true. Fact check: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/11/fact-check-n-95-filters-not-too-large-stop-covid-19-particles/5343537002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/11/fac...
- tsurkoprt 6y ago
  Really, USA Today is your fact checker ?
  - Xylakant 6y ago
    That fact check is actually well written and explains the relevant underlying principles of how n95 masks work. It cites experts in their fields and gives a complete list of sources used, so it’s again verifiable. As far as my understanding of these things goes goes, the explanation holds up. Whether it’s published in USA Today or not does not impact that.
01100011 6y ago
Does the mask need to present a physical barrier to the virus particles? Is there any electrostatic force, for instance, which would trap viruses as they passed close to the mask material?
- Symmetry 6y ago
  Yes. Also N95 filter .15 micron particles better than .3 micron particles because their motion tends to be more Brownian and less ballistic, leading to more particle/masks interactions where they can get caught.
  - 01100011 6y ago
    Was that a 'yes' to the first question or the second? Thanks in either case for the reply.
    - Symmetry 6y ago
      Oh, the second.

mike_d 6y ago

While we are on the subject of ineffective masks, please consider reaching out to anyone you know who works at Esty and pressure them to ban "mesh face masks." Esty is unfortunately being abused to peddle what is effectively a 5 year olds "I'm not touching you" response to mask requirements.

FriendlyNormie 6y ago
Everyone like you needs to die.
postalrat 6y ago
Mesh face masks are stupid. But requiring people to wear something with zero formal requirements is also pretty darn stupid.
CydeWeys 6y ago
I'm no anti-masker, but aren't there legitimate uses for mesh masks? Costumes? Raves? Cosplay? I mean, maybe not during the pandemic, but afterwards? Maybe only the ones display anti-mask messages on them should be banned, and then the other masks that aren't ineffective protection should merely have a warning message displayed to that effect.
- amagumori 6y ago
  A CoC type clause requiring mesh mask listings to be posted with a “Not a Covid preventative mask” type notice seems like it’d make sense. Idk how the implementation of that requirement would go though.
  - ianferrel 6y ago
    The issue isn't that buyers think they'll prevent Covid. The issue is that buyers know they're useless against Covid and buy them to thumb their nose at mask requirements.
- mike_d 6y ago
  You used to be able to buy a "solvent trap" which made the job of cleaning a firearm a lot less messy. But 99% of the people who bought them drilled a few holes and converted them to makeshift silencers. Even though they have a perfectly legitimate use case none of the major online platforms will let you list one for sale.

Sohcahtoa82 6y ago

Does Betteridge's Law of Headlines apply still here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines

sunkenvicar 6y ago

Its a no-brainer to wear a surgical or N95 mask instead of homemade pantyhose on your face.

aaroninsf 6y ago

TL;DR from when I researched this the first time this came around: • a properly-fit mask intended as a mask, is always best • a COTTON buff is vastly better than nothing, and can be as effective as a cotton mask • don't use transparent spandex, it's not effective* * unless your intent is to conform in appearance only to own the libs

osamagirl69 6y ago

It is nice to see a well reasoned response to a paper for once. It is really a shame how some fields (cold fusion, climate change, now it is anything related to coronaviruses) are so loaded that one cannot published a their research without worrying about how it will be misconstrued by the public

Symmetry 6y ago

Apparently MIT medical also has a good article on how to choose mask materials. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24757619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24757619

forgotmysn 6y ago
i dont know if you meant to, but you just linked to this thread
Symmetry 6y ago
The link I meant to give. https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-updates/2020/08/how-do-i-choose-cloth-face-mask https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-updates/2020/08/how-do-i-ch...

hamolton 6y ago

For fields with a large amount of public interest, are there standards for saying what evidence is actionable and what isn't? It feels like clinical research is the only science that has a clear pipeline between an experiment being completed and evidence accepted as fact in practice.

verst 6y ago

No. Neck gaiters are not worse than no mask at all. This experiment was discussed many times. There were several flaws in the analysis. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/neck-gaiters-covid-19/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/neck-gaiters-covid-19/

nunez 6y ago

So I initially used Buffs as face masks because they looked cooler than regular face masks and also happened to be more widely available. After getting my first buff, I noticed that I failed the "blow test" (blowing out a candle with your mask on) when I used a single layer of the buff but _barely_ passed when I folded it over itself. However, the Buff was quite uncomfortable when I did this, so I looked into getting a proper cloth mask. As it happens, the cloth mask is more comfortable and WAY more effective at filtration! I now use the Buffs on my head when I work out. They're great at absorbing sweat; not as great for preventing the spread of coronavirus. Unfortunately, football coaches and players still use gaiters on the field (at least the ones I've seen when I've seen games at bars and stuff).