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> Yes, it's about as useful as couples bringing up two-decade old issues in fights they're having today. VSCode, Edge, .NET Core, WSL, DX12, deliberately cripp

> Yes, it's about as useful as couples bringing up two-decade old issues in fights they're having today. VSCode, Edge, .NET Core, WSL, DX12, deliberately crippling cross-platform Vulkan drivers, ... And then you have the stereotypically anti-user bullshit, like the telemetry and enforced upgrades.

tomnipotent 6y ago
> VSCode, Edge, .NET Core, WSL, DX12 All things generally loved by the community (except Edge). > deliberately crippling cross-platform Vulkan drivers I find nothing doing a quick search for this. Do you have any evidence of this? > like the telemetry and enforced upgrades Neither of which have proven harmful to their users, other than the inconvenience of a forced restart. I'd rather have forced upgrades than the mayhem that existed before. How do these have ANYTHING to do with Microsoft from 20 years ago?
- nitrogen 6y ago
  Neither of which have proven harmful to their users I don't think it's a good faith argument to redefine proven harm to exclude all of the harms that people have complained about.
  - tomnipotent 6y ago
    > exclude all of the harms that people have complained about. Where are the harms? No, really. It's bad faith to claim people grumbling about inconveniences are somehow being "harmed".
- f1refly 6y ago
  I have yet to see a human being thats happy about Microsoft edge that's getting shoved down his throat every other windows update. Or one that loves the way every mildly interesting aspect about vscode is proprietary. Or directx12, because why support vulkan when you can just continue locking as many programs to your platform as possible. Also both telemetry and forced updates impose a giant problem for all administrators in every coporation i worked for since widows 10 was deployed, because they want to get rid of it from a security point of view but management refuses. A former colleague of mine quit his job because he couldn't handle the responsibility and had develeoped serious problems with sleep and general wellbeing
  - tomnipotent 6y ago
    > I have yet to see a human being thats happy about Microsoft edge that's getting shoved down his throat every other windows update I absolutely hate Edge, and feel the same away about being unable to uninstall Safari on iOS/macOS. > directx12, because why support vulkan when you can just continue locking as many programs to your platform as possible They've invested decades into DX, I see no reason they should abandon that IP. > Also both telemetry and forced updates impose a giant problem for all administrators Windows 10 has group policy controls for IT admins to disable forced upgrades and telemetry. This sounds like complete dramatization.
    - vetinari 6y ago
      > Windows 10 has group policy controls for IT admins to disable forced upgrades and telemetry. Only for some SKUs that not all organizations are eligible to license; even for those that are it represents additional expense. And even then, only partially. Telemetry cannot be completely disabled in any Windows 10 SKU. Forced updates can be controlled only via WSUS (by declining them). > This sounds like complete dramatization. Please do not inject your value judgements into discussion.
      - tomnipotent 6y ago
        > Only for some SKUs that not all organizations are eligible to license Who is prevented from Windows 10 Enterprise licenses, other than those already under specific sanctions? Windows 10 Server, Education, and IoT also support disabling telemetry. > Forced updates can be controlled only via WSUS (by declining them). They can be controlled via Group Policies, not to mention Microsoft abandoned (most) forced upgrades with the May 2019 Update. Explicit action is now required to install these updates (like you mentioned). The only updates that cannot be disabled are end of service updates, which are every 18 months.
1_player 6y ago
> VSCode, .NET Core, WSL Care to explain what's wrong with them? What's anticompetitive about them? Or you just don't like them because "reasons"? > DX12 What is wrong with it? It's not like it's forced down your throat like Metal. You still have the choice of Vulkan and OpenGL > deliberately crippling cross-platform Vulkan drivers Do you mind providing citations, instead of just causing flame wars with no solid argument on your side?
- Nullabillity 6y ago
  > Care to explain what's wrong with them? What's anticompetitive about them? Or you just don't like them because "reasons"? They're all sold in wildly misleading ways. VSCode is open source according to the website, but the FOSS build is missing a lot of the advertised features (like, say, the extension manager...). Same with .NET Core. Sure, the compiler and core libraries are open source (if you can find the real thing, rather than the umpteen facades that they pollute their repos with)... But core tools like the debugger are still closed and deliberately locked to only work with (the branded, closed builds of) VSCode. That's not a huge problem if it at least had proper support for printf debugging (like Rust's `Debug`). But of course that's not a thing, because why would you ever use anything else than VSCode? WSL is sold as a drop-in compatibility layer, but WSL1 was missing a lot of core features (hell, SQLite wouldn't even run with its default settings). WSL2 is somewhat better, but still does a bunch of shady crap (no systemd or equivalent, DirectX-on-WSL, etc). > What is wrong with it? For one, there was just no need for it. The only reason for it to exist is to make it harder to port stuff away from Windows. If they had a problem with Vulkan's API (haven't really used either, so can't comment on the exact differences) then they could have designed it as a layer on top of Vulkan from the start. DXVK already proved that it's a viable approach. > It's not like it's forced down your throat like Metal. You still have the choice of Vulkan and OpenGL Xbox?

tomnipotent 6y ago

> VSCode, Edge, .NET Core, WSL, DX12 All things generally loved by the community (except Edge). > deliberately crippling cross-platform Vulkan drivers I find nothing doing a quick search for this. Do you have any evidence of this? > like the telemetry and enforced upgrades Neither of which have proven harmful to their users, other than the inconvenience of a forced restart. I'd rather have forced upgrades than the mayhem that existed before. How do these have ANYTHING to do with Microsoft from 20 years ago?

nitrogen 6y ago
Neither of which have proven harmful to their users I don't think it's a good faith argument to redefine proven harm to exclude all of the harms that people have complained about.
- tomnipotent 6y ago
  > exclude all of the harms that people have complained about. Where are the harms? No, really. It's bad faith to claim people grumbling about inconveniences are somehow being "harmed".
f1refly 6y ago
I have yet to see a human being thats happy about Microsoft edge that's getting shoved down his throat every other windows update. Or one that loves the way every mildly interesting aspect about vscode is proprietary. Or directx12, because why support vulkan when you can just continue locking as many programs to your platform as possible. Also both telemetry and forced updates impose a giant problem for all administrators in every coporation i worked for since widows 10 was deployed, because they want to get rid of it from a security point of view but management refuses. A former colleague of mine quit his job because he couldn't handle the responsibility and had develeoped serious problems with sleep and general wellbeing
- tomnipotent 6y ago
  > I have yet to see a human being thats happy about Microsoft edge that's getting shoved down his throat every other windows update I absolutely hate Edge, and feel the same away about being unable to uninstall Safari on iOS/macOS. > directx12, because why support vulkan when you can just continue locking as many programs to your platform as possible They've invested decades into DX, I see no reason they should abandon that IP. > Also both telemetry and forced updates impose a giant problem for all administrators Windows 10 has group policy controls for IT admins to disable forced upgrades and telemetry. This sounds like complete dramatization.
  - vetinari 6y ago
    > Windows 10 has group policy controls for IT admins to disable forced upgrades and telemetry. Only for some SKUs that not all organizations are eligible to license; even for those that are it represents additional expense. And even then, only partially. Telemetry cannot be completely disabled in any Windows 10 SKU. Forced updates can be controlled only via WSUS (by declining them). > This sounds like complete dramatization. Please do not inject your value judgements into discussion.
    - tomnipotent 6y ago
      > Only for some SKUs that not all organizations are eligible to license Who is prevented from Windows 10 Enterprise licenses, other than those already under specific sanctions? Windows 10 Server, Education, and IoT also support disabling telemetry. > Forced updates can be controlled only via WSUS (by declining them). They can be controlled via Group Policies, not to mention Microsoft abandoned (most) forced upgrades with the May 2019 Update. Explicit action is now required to install these updates (like you mentioned). The only updates that cannot be disabled are end of service updates, which are every 18 months.

1_player 6y ago

> VSCode, .NET Core, WSL Care to explain what's wrong with them? What's anticompetitive about them? Or you just don't like them because "reasons"? > DX12 What is wrong with it? It's not like it's forced down your throat like Metal. You still have the choice of Vulkan and OpenGL > deliberately crippling cross-platform Vulkan drivers Do you mind providing citations, instead of just causing flame wars with no solid argument on your side?

Nullabillity 6y ago
> Care to explain what's wrong with them? What's anticompetitive about them? Or you just don't like them because "reasons"? They're all sold in wildly misleading ways. VSCode is open source according to the website, but the FOSS build is missing a lot of the advertised features (like, say, the extension manager...). Same with .NET Core. Sure, the compiler and core libraries are open source (if you can find the real thing, rather than the umpteen facades that they pollute their repos with)... But core tools like the debugger are still closed and deliberately locked to only work with (the branded, closed builds of) VSCode. That's not a huge problem if it at least had proper support for printf debugging (like Rust's `Debug`). But of course that's not a thing, because why would you ever use anything else than VSCode? WSL is sold as a drop-in compatibility layer, but WSL1 was missing a lot of core features (hell, SQLite wouldn't even run with its default settings). WSL2 is somewhat better, but still does a bunch of shady crap (no systemd or equivalent, DirectX-on-WSL, etc). > What is wrong with it? For one, there was just no need for it. The only reason for it to exist is to make it harder to port stuff away from Windows. If they had a problem with Vulkan's API (haven't really used either, so can't comment on the exact differences) then they could have designed it as a layer on top of Vulkan from the start. DXVK already proved that it's a viable approach. > It's not like it's forced down your throat like Metal. You still have the choice of Vulkan and OpenGL Xbox?