6 ms·

I don't understand why we even have ballot drop boxes. The ballots are all sealed in postage paid envelopes already and surely the majority are placed in regula

I don't understand why we even have ballot drop boxes. The ballots are all sealed in postage paid envelopes already and surely the majority are placed in regular mailboxes which are everywhere. So what's the point in having special drop boxes at all? I don't see a security argument since centralizing the collection of ballots would seem to me to make it easier, not harder, to attack. Fake boxes are one attack discussed in the article, but even straightforward stealing of ballots from boxes would be much easier when you only have to attack one collection box containing thousands of ballots instead of thousands of individual mailboxes distributed all over.

mplewis 6y ago
You need a stamp to mail most ballots. You do not need a stamp to put ballots in a dropbox.
- jedberg 6y ago
  In California all ballots are postage paid.
- modeless 6y ago
  In California all ballots do not require a stamp AFAIK. Mine didn't. Even if you do drop it in a drop box, you still have to seal it in the provided postage paid envelope.
- Cerium 6y ago
  You do not need a stamp in California. https://www.sos.ca.gov/administration/news-releases-and-advisories/2019-news-releases-and-advisories/no-stamp-no-problem-all-vote-mail-ballots-now-come-prepaid-postage-return-envelopes?fbclid=IwAR2sEPUpSZblc4n1WK06kECqYtkbyn-yuGwrbMvysWcN4wfz6B4qomf7Bho https://www.sos.ca.gov/administration/news-releases-and-advi...
- PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  This isn’t true in California and I don’t know of any other state that requires stamps to mail in ballots. Driving any distance to drop off a ballot is more expensive than mailing it from home. It’s more likely that these people have consumed a lot of exaggerated news stories about the mail system and therefore think that dropping it off is safer. Meanwhile, we’re all getting the rest of our mail on time without exceptional delays.
- Larrikin 6y ago
  I've never had a mail in ballot that didn't have the postage prepaid, although when I lived abroad I had to obviously cover the international cost. I've voted by mail in nearly every election since my first in 2008 and never had a problem. This year when the president knew a large amount of people were going to vote by mail he installed a mega donor with no experience and I began receiving my mail extremely late. I absolutely did not trust it this year and turned my ballot into a drop box at a polling site. Drop box usage was thankfully expended this year in my state.
ForHackernews 6y ago
The ballot drop boxes exist largely because certain government officials have worked to undermine faith in the postal service: Both with rhetoric suggesting postal balloting is susceptible to fraud and through active steps to make the post office slower and less efficient, so it might in fact struggle to deliver mail-in ballots by election day.
- jedberg 6y ago
  That's not true. We've had the drop-boxes for the last few elections.
- smsm42 6y ago
  Cases like this: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/three-tubs-of-ballots-discovered-in-mail-processing-center-after-polls-closed-in-wisconsin/ar-BB12laJO https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/three-tubs-of-ballot... do a lot to "undermine the faith". In experiments - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-vote-by-mail-ballot-counted-election/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-vote-by-mail-ballot-co... - 3% to whopping 21% of mailed test "ballots" - didn't arrive in time or not at all. That's not just "rhetoric".
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
smsm42 6y ago
> regular mailboxes which are everywhere They are not as "everywhere" as you'd think though. The closest mailbox to my house, for example, is on an unremarkable parking lot in about a mile from my home, in geographical distance, and about two miles if you follow the roads. And I live in relatively dense suburb. If someone lives in a more rural setting, it could easily be further and harder to locate, especially if you aren't good with online searches (I would never think to go look for my closest mailbox in that specific location otherwise, there may be some logic in why it's there but I for sure don't know it). So if you have a location that you know is frequently visited by a lot of people (such as, e.g., church) it may make sense to place a collection point there to ensure you do not lose anyone.
- svrb 6y ago
  Are you saying that you cannot post outgoing mail at the same location you receive it?
  - smsm42 6y ago
    I can. If I don't care too much whether it arrives or not, and whether it's stolen or not. When I was young and reckless, I tried to send a check out to pay a bill (water or something like that) this way. Next thing I know, I get a call from Wells Fargo in San Francisco (I am not in San Francisco) asking me if I really want them to cash a check for $MUCH_BIGGER_SUM_THAN_INTENDED. Good thing they called, because I didn't. Of course, the scammer fled immediately after the bank clerk touched the phone, so that was the end of it, except that I am smarter now, and no longer send checks in the same location as I receive my mail.
    - svrb 6y ago
      In other words, you were lying for political points when you said mailboxes weren't everywhere.
Uehreka 6y ago
Earlier this year the president appointed a new head of the US Postal Service. This person may just hate the USPS and have no intention of subverting an election, but regardless of their intentions, their actions undermining the USPS during the exact couple months when people were realizing they were going to have to vote by mail have made many people understandably suspicious of the USPS. These people want to not have to go to a crowded polling place during a pandemic, but also are worried that a ballot sent through the mail may not arrive on time. So they are seeking to ensure their vote is counted as well as possible by dropping their ballot off in person. Regarding the security arguments you propose: The list of official boxes is generally on the local board of elections’ official website. Also, many boards of elections notify the voter upon receipt of their ballot, so if you drop off your ballot but never receive notification, you can call them and find out what’s up. The boxes are locked, many are near places like schools or banks that have CCTV. And the kicker: If anyone catches you tampering with the very obviously marked box, you risk jail time. To really swing an election, you’ll need multiple people who are willing to risk jail time in return for possibly but not certainly swinging an election in their preferred direction.
- modeless 6y ago
  > The list of official boxes is generally on the local board of elections’ official website > If anyone catches you tampering with the very obviously marked box, you risk jail time > The boxes are locked These are all true of any public mail drop box. Mail tampering is a felony with prison time, the list of official mail drop boxes is public, and they are all locked. I remain unconvinced. A centralized box with marginally better security is still easier to attack than thousands of distributed mailboxes.
  - Uehreka 6y ago
    Not sure what you'll think of this, but in my jurisdiction, there isn't one centrally located drop box (although there also are not thousands). Here's a PDF with the drop box locations, as a citizen of Baltimore I can use any one of these (not just the one closest to me): https://boe.baltimorecity.gov/sites/default/files/2020-10-01%200756%20-%20PUBLISHED%20-%20WELCOME%20Page%20-%20PG20%20Voting%20Dropbox%20Location%20Information%20-%20UPDATE.pdf https://boe.baltimorecity.gov/sites/default/files/2020-10-01...

mplewis 6y ago

You need a stamp to mail most ballots. You do not need a stamp to put ballots in a dropbox.

jedberg 6y ago
In California all ballots are postage paid.
modeless 6y ago
In California all ballots do not require a stamp AFAIK. Mine didn't. Even if you do drop it in a drop box, you still have to seal it in the provided postage paid envelope.
Cerium 6y ago
You do not need a stamp in California. https://www.sos.ca.gov/administration/news-releases-and-advisories/2019-news-releases-and-advisories/no-stamp-no-problem-all-vote-mail-ballots-now-come-prepaid-postage-return-envelopes?fbclid=IwAR2sEPUpSZblc4n1WK06kECqYtkbyn-yuGwrbMvysWcN4wfz6B4qomf7Bho https://www.sos.ca.gov/administration/news-releases-and-advi...
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
This isn’t true in California and I don’t know of any other state that requires stamps to mail in ballots. Driving any distance to drop off a ballot is more expensive than mailing it from home. It’s more likely that these people have consumed a lot of exaggerated news stories about the mail system and therefore think that dropping it off is safer. Meanwhile, we’re all getting the rest of our mail on time without exceptional delays.
Larrikin 6y ago
I've never had a mail in ballot that didn't have the postage prepaid, although when I lived abroad I had to obviously cover the international cost. I've voted by mail in nearly every election since my first in 2008 and never had a problem. This year when the president knew a large amount of people were going to vote by mail he installed a mega donor with no experience and I began receiving my mail extremely late. I absolutely did not trust it this year and turned my ballot into a drop box at a polling site. Drop box usage was thankfully expended this year in my state.

ForHackernews 6y ago

The ballot drop boxes exist largely because certain government officials have worked to undermine faith in the postal service: Both with rhetoric suggesting postal balloting is susceptible to fraud and through active steps to make the post office slower and less efficient, so it might in fact struggle to deliver mail-in ballots by election day.

jedberg 6y ago
That's not true. We've had the drop-boxes for the last few elections.
smsm42 6y ago
Cases like this: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/three-tubs-of-ballots-discovered-in-mail-processing-center-after-polls-closed-in-wisconsin/ar-BB12laJO https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/three-tubs-of-ballot... do a lot to "undermine the faith". In experiments - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-vote-by-mail-ballot-counted-election/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-vote-by-mail-ballot-co... - 3% to whopping 21% of mailed test "ballots" - didn't arrive in time or not at all. That's not just "rhetoric".

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

smsm42 6y ago

> regular mailboxes which are everywhere They are not as "everywhere" as you'd think though. The closest mailbox to my house, for example, is on an unremarkable parking lot in about a mile from my home, in geographical distance, and about two miles if you follow the roads. And I live in relatively dense suburb. If someone lives in a more rural setting, it could easily be further and harder to locate, especially if you aren't good with online searches (I would never think to go look for my closest mailbox in that specific location otherwise, there may be some logic in why it's there but I for sure don't know it). So if you have a location that you know is frequently visited by a lot of people (such as, e.g., church) it may make sense to place a collection point there to ensure you do not lose anyone.

svrb 6y ago
Are you saying that you cannot post outgoing mail at the same location you receive it?
- smsm42 6y ago
  I can. If I don't care too much whether it arrives or not, and whether it's stolen or not. When I was young and reckless, I tried to send a check out to pay a bill (water or something like that) this way. Next thing I know, I get a call from Wells Fargo in San Francisco (I am not in San Francisco) asking me if I really want them to cash a check for $MUCH_BIGGER_SUM_THAN_INTENDED. Good thing they called, because I didn't. Of course, the scammer fled immediately after the bank clerk touched the phone, so that was the end of it, except that I am smarter now, and no longer send checks in the same location as I receive my mail.
  - svrb 6y ago
    In other words, you were lying for political points when you said mailboxes weren't everywhere.

Uehreka 6y ago

Earlier this year the president appointed a new head of the US Postal Service. This person may just hate the USPS and have no intention of subverting an election, but regardless of their intentions, their actions undermining the USPS during the exact couple months when people were realizing they were going to have to vote by mail have made many people understandably suspicious of the USPS. These people want to not have to go to a crowded polling place during a pandemic, but also are worried that a ballot sent through the mail may not arrive on time. So they are seeking to ensure their vote is counted as well as possible by dropping their ballot off in person. Regarding the security arguments you propose: The list of official boxes is generally on the local board of elections’ official website. Also, many boards of elections notify the voter upon receipt of their ballot, so if you drop off your ballot but never receive notification, you can call them and find out what’s up. The boxes are locked, many are near places like schools or banks that have CCTV. And the kicker: If anyone catches you tampering with the very obviously marked box, you risk jail time. To really swing an election, you’ll need multiple people who are willing to risk jail time in return for possibly but not certainly swinging an election in their preferred direction.

modeless 6y ago
> The list of official boxes is generally on the local board of elections’ official website > If anyone catches you tampering with the very obviously marked box, you risk jail time > The boxes are locked These are all true of any public mail drop box. Mail tampering is a felony with prison time, the list of official mail drop boxes is public, and they are all locked. I remain unconvinced. A centralized box with marginally better security is still easier to attack than thousands of distributed mailboxes.
- Uehreka 6y ago
  Not sure what you'll think of this, but in my jurisdiction, there isn't one centrally located drop box (although there also are not thousands). Here's a PDF with the drop box locations, as a citizen of Baltimore I can use any one of these (not just the one closest to me): https://boe.baltimorecity.gov/sites/default/files/2020-10-01%200756%20-%20PUBLISHED%20-%20WELCOME%20Page%20-%20PG20%20Voting%20Dropbox%20Location%20Information%20-%20UPDATE.pdf https://boe.baltimorecity.gov/sites/default/files/2020-10-01...