3 ms·

Okay, just take a step back. Do we have to be so principled about all this? Holocaust Deniers are bad. Full stop. We all keep going back and forth on these pri

Okay, just take a step back. Do we have to be so principled about all this? Holocaust Deniers are bad. Full stop. We all keep going back and forth on these principled stances about how freedom of speech is some holy thing that should be protected at all costs no matter how much damage it causes. That notion is absurd in my experience. This philosophical ideal of true freedom of speech doesn't even exist! 4Chan still has to censor child porn - and thanks God! Child pornography is horrible and no one should ever be able to hide behind the guise of "free speech" to get away with dissemination of it. You know what else is horrible? A huge population of people were tortured, starved and gassed to death with numbers in the millions. But do you know what happened after that ended? People tried to pretend it didn't happen at all. And they still are. Now, I'm not Jewish, but just thinking about that makes me sick. The idea that someone is out there gaslighting people into believing the holocaust doesn't exist is despicable. If you proposed holocaust denial on this website you'd be in violation of its rules and be flagged or banned. The site is better because of these rules. And finally, I'd like to pose a thought experiment - If Hitler were alive today, how do you think he would gain power? Misinformation campaigns, appeals to white nationalism and racist dog whistles on one of the major social networks no doubt. Of course, Facebook, Google, Twitter etc. are dealing with a very similar scenario right now with Donald Trump who has intentionally divided this country to its breaking point all while likely (indirectly) killing thousands of people by sending them confusing and false messaging about the coronavirus and don't let me forget he's literally stated his intent to steal the election if he loses. You know, basically just textbook fascism. Ban them. All of them. Today. Edit: Made things sightly less emotionally charged and rage-baiting. Apologies for the harsh (er) words. I understand it's not in the spirit of the discourse we want to encourage here.

Zpalmtree 6y ago
Donald Trump is Literally Hitler and we should take away freedom of speech from all his supporters!
tomp 6y ago
> Holocaust Deniers are pieces of shit. Full stop. A decent society considers even pieces of shit worthy of human dignity.
- ShamelessC 6y ago
  And does your unclear definition of a "decent society" and "human dignity" imply that yelling fire in a theatre (or denying the holocaust) is acceptable behavior? I mean, we both just called them pieces of shit. My version of the word "dignity" generally precludes people who have shown they have no dignity. At any rate, I suspect you wrote this particular argument because it lacks nuance, appeals to our sense of decency and is emotionally appealing to those who already hold the viewpoint. Were you trying to change my mind? Or just trying to find out how many people agree with you?
malwrar 6y ago
It is amusing that you propose the vigorous use of force (“Ban Them. All of them. Today”) to eliminate voices you deem fascist. If you feel this strongly about the harm of holocaust denial, have you considered working to convince people the holocaust did in fact happen? It’s pretty easy—-plenty of evidence exists to suggest it happened and all attempts I’ve encountered of people make a case otherwise have been debunked. I guess it’s not worth the effort to actually talk to people though, easier to just convince someone they’re wrong by threat of force.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  To be fair, social media does facilitate both social contagion and echo chamber formation, the combination of which can form very fastidious communities. Its not a simple issue, but I don't think putting this power in the hands of a few for-profit corporations is the right solution.
  - names_are_hard 6y ago
    I'd rather see Facebook take steps to solve this problem than to start carving out lists of topics that are forbidden. Is there a way they can change the medium to encourage deeper thought, more meaningful conversation, and less virality? Maybe that's a better way to dampen the spread of hatred
- ShamelessC 6y ago
  These are people who are entrenched in a theory that also suggests people who disagree with you are "the enemy". Arguing with someone like that is risky because the moment you get through to them, their cognitive dissonance might decide to double down on the falsehood because they would have to come to terms with the notion that they believe something quite shameful. I see this happen in other areas alot. Mostly white people who can't handle that they may have contributed to racism at one point. "I'm not a racist! You're all just social just warriors!" turns into "I'm not a racist but...[insert racism here]". Of course the deep insecurity over being actually racist is the common thread. Meanwhile there's a whole other movement of white people who are now willing to admit how privileged all of us are to have been in a system for hundreds of years that was a "democracy" for some, but a nightmarish dictatorship for black people. Was I insecure when I realized how tone deaf I had been? Sure. But I possess self reflection and have made efforts to change my behavior since then. But yes, if I find myself in a conversation with a holocaust denier I'll do my best to convince them they're wrong. I highly doubt that winds up working though.

Zpalmtree 6y ago

Donald Trump is Literally Hitler and we should take away freedom of speech from all his supporters!

tomp 6y ago

> Holocaust Deniers are pieces of shit. Full stop. A decent society considers even pieces of shit worthy of human dignity.

ShamelessC 6y ago
And does your unclear definition of a "decent society" and "human dignity" imply that yelling fire in a theatre (or denying the holocaust) is acceptable behavior? I mean, we both just called them pieces of shit. My version of the word "dignity" generally precludes people who have shown they have no dignity. At any rate, I suspect you wrote this particular argument because it lacks nuance, appeals to our sense of decency and is emotionally appealing to those who already hold the viewpoint. Were you trying to change my mind? Or just trying to find out how many people agree with you?

malwrar 6y ago

It is amusing that you propose the vigorous use of force (“Ban Them. All of them. Today”) to eliminate voices you deem fascist. If you feel this strongly about the harm of holocaust denial, have you considered working to convince people the holocaust did in fact happen? It’s pretty easy—-plenty of evidence exists to suggest it happened and all attempts I’ve encountered of people make a case otherwise have been debunked. I guess it’s not worth the effort to actually talk to people though, easier to just convince someone they’re wrong by threat of force.

TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
To be fair, social media does facilitate both social contagion and echo chamber formation, the combination of which can form very fastidious communities. Its not a simple issue, but I don't think putting this power in the hands of a few for-profit corporations is the right solution.
- names_are_hard 6y ago
  I'd rather see Facebook take steps to solve this problem than to start carving out lists of topics that are forbidden. Is there a way they can change the medium to encourage deeper thought, more meaningful conversation, and less virality? Maybe that's a better way to dampen the spread of hatred
ShamelessC 6y ago
These are people who are entrenched in a theory that also suggests people who disagree with you are "the enemy". Arguing with someone like that is risky because the moment you get through to them, their cognitive dissonance might decide to double down on the falsehood because they would have to come to terms with the notion that they believe something quite shameful. I see this happen in other areas alot. Mostly white people who can't handle that they may have contributed to racism at one point. "I'm not a racist! You're all just social just warriors!" turns into "I'm not a racist but...[insert racism here]". Of course the deep insecurity over being actually racist is the common thread. Meanwhile there's a whole other movement of white people who are now willing to admit how privileged all of us are to have been in a system for hundreds of years that was a "democracy" for some, but a nightmarish dictatorship for black people. Was I insecure when I realized how tone deaf I had been? Sure. But I possess self reflection and have made efforts to change my behavior since then. But yes, if I find myself in a conversation with a holocaust denier I'll do my best to convince them they're wrong. I highly doubt that winds up working though.