5 ms·

The worst part about the police getting military gear is that the actual military has much stricter rules of engagement. With great power comes great responsibi

The worst part about the police getting military gear is that the actual military has much stricter rules of engagement. With great power comes great responsibility.

throwaway2048 6y ago
Yep, even in a warzone, if a member of the US military killed somebody because they thought they were reaching for a gun, they would be court-martialed and put in jail, and then kicked out of the military after their sentence. The standard for police in the USA is appallingly low, and getting lower.
- HarryHirsch 6y ago
  The hot head will at least get a bollocking from the captain that shooting people dead isn't how you pacify a town. Within the police, no such concerns.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Well, apart from that guy who shot so many civilians that his colleagues kept bending his sights, who eventually got prosecuted for war crimes .. then pardoned by the President.
  - learc83 6y ago
    That says more about the President than anything else.
- okasaki 6y ago
  Come on dude, we've all seen the drone footage showing the US blowing people to pieces for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
  - throwaway2048 6y ago
    As shitty as they are, drone strikes are operated by the CIA, and not subject to the military's rules of engagement, or military oversight, this is entirely on purpose.
mcv 6y ago
There was a story about a ex-marine police officer who accurately judged that a suspect did not need to be shot, and then got fired for not shooting him.
- jakelazaroff 6y ago
  Here’s the link, if anyone’s interested in reading it: https://features.propublica.org/weirton/police-shooting-lethal-force-cop-fired-west-virginia/ https://features.propublica.org/weirton/police-shooting-leth... It’s frustrating and sad, like stories about this tend to be.
  - phobosanomaly 6y ago
    I stopped and read this. Thank you very much for sharing. It is excellent and very well-written. For anyone who hasn't read it, this is a similar, excellent article in the New Yorker on an ex-CIA officer's experience working as a beat cop on the streets of Atlanta. It dovetails magnificently with the ProPublica piece. The Spy Who Came Home: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/05/07/the-spy-who-came-home https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/05/07/the-spy-who-ca... I believe that the following three paragraph-long quotes serve as a sufficient tl;dr: "According to David M. Kennedy, one of the nation’s leading criminologists, American policing is practiced more as a craft than as a profession. “The kind of thinking that should go into framing and refining what a profession of public safety should be has still not been done,” he told me. Officers are deployed as enforcers of the state, without being taught psychology, anthropology, sociology, community dynamics, local history, or criminology. Lethal force is prioritized above other options. When Skinner joined the police force, everyone in his class was given a pistol, but none were given Tasers, because the department had run out." "At Georgia’s state police-training facilities, the focus is “all tactics and law,” Skinner told me. Officers are taught that “once you give a lawful order it has to be followed—and that means immediately.” But the recipient of a “lawful order” may not understand why it’s being issued, or that his or her failure to comply may lead to the use of force. There’s no training on how to de-escalate tense scenarios in which no crime has been committed, even though the majority of police calls fall into that category. It is up to the officer’s discretion to shape these interactions, and the most straightforward option is to order belligerent people to the ground and, if they resist, tackle them and put them in cuffs." "“This is how situations go so, so badly—yet justifiably, legally,” Skinner said. Police officers often encounter people during the worst moments of their lives, and Skinner believes that his role is partly to resolve trouble and partly to prevent people from crossing the line from what he calls “near-crime” into “actual crime.” The goal, he said, is “to slow things down, using the power of human interaction more than the power of the state.”"
hguant 6y ago
On paper. I hang out a lot with a lot of former US infantry guys on discord, and they talk all the time about how rule one was come back alive, and rule two was 'make sure you all get your stories straight.' This mythos of the American warfighter being above and beyond is propaganda. Good propaganda, because it has some basis in truth, but it whitewashes a lot of nastiness.
- baq 6y ago
  at there are rules. you shouldn't have to go to Hague to win a case against your own sheriff.
- MperorM 6y ago
  This was the case for the danish military in Iraq and Afghanistan as well. The people I feel worst for are the soldiers themselves. You're informed over and over about the rules of engagement, and when you get there none of it applies. If you don't shoot first, then your next to you friend will die. Obviously you're going to break the rules in that situation, it's what any human would do. Now you have to live the rest of your life, knowing you broke conventions. You should be tried like the war-criminal you are. Or so it feels. While I disagreed with the west's involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan, I have the utmost respect for the soldiers who fought there. They deserve a set of rules can realistically be followed.
ulisesrmzroche 6y ago
Propaganda. It’s the exact opposite.

The worst part about the police getting military gear is that the actual military has much stricter rules of engagement. With great power comes great responsibility.

throwaway2048 6y ago

Yep, even in a warzone, if a member of the US military killed somebody because they thought they were reaching for a gun, they would be court-martialed and put in jail, and then kicked out of the military after their sentence. The standard for police in the USA is appallingly low, and getting lower.

HarryHirsch 6y ago
The hot head will at least get a bollocking from the captain that shooting people dead isn't how you pacify a town. Within the police, no such concerns.
pjc50 6y ago
Well, apart from that guy who shot so many civilians that his colleagues kept bending his sights, who eventually got prosecuted for war crimes .. then pardoned by the President.
- learc83 6y ago
  That says more about the President than anything else.
okasaki 6y ago
Come on dude, we've all seen the drone footage showing the US blowing people to pieces for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
- throwaway2048 6y ago
  As shitty as they are, drone strikes are operated by the CIA, and not subject to the military's rules of engagement, or military oversight, this is entirely on purpose.

mcv 6y ago

There was a story about a ex-marine police officer who accurately judged that a suspect did not need to be shot, and then got fired for not shooting him.

jakelazaroff 6y ago
Here’s the link, if anyone’s interested in reading it: https://features.propublica.org/weirton/police-shooting-lethal-force-cop-fired-west-virginia/ https://features.propublica.org/weirton/police-shooting-leth... It’s frustrating and sad, like stories about this tend to be.
- phobosanomaly 6y ago
  I stopped and read this. Thank you very much for sharing. It is excellent and very well-written. For anyone who hasn't read it, this is a similar, excellent article in the New Yorker on an ex-CIA officer's experience working as a beat cop on the streets of Atlanta. It dovetails magnificently with the ProPublica piece. The Spy Who Came Home: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/05/07/the-spy-who-came-home https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/05/07/the-spy-who-ca... I believe that the following three paragraph-long quotes serve as a sufficient tl;dr: "According to David M. Kennedy, one of the nation’s leading criminologists, American policing is practiced more as a craft than as a profession. “The kind of thinking that should go into framing and refining what a profession of public safety should be has still not been done,” he told me. Officers are deployed as enforcers of the state, without being taught psychology, anthropology, sociology, community dynamics, local history, or criminology. Lethal force is prioritized above other options. When Skinner joined the police force, everyone in his class was given a pistol, but none were given Tasers, because the department had run out." "At Georgia’s state police-training facilities, the focus is “all tactics and law,” Skinner told me. Officers are taught that “once you give a lawful order it has to be followed—and that means immediately.” But the recipient of a “lawful order” may not understand why it’s being issued, or that his or her failure to comply may lead to the use of force. There’s no training on how to de-escalate tense scenarios in which no crime has been committed, even though the majority of police calls fall into that category. It is up to the officer’s discretion to shape these interactions, and the most straightforward option is to order belligerent people to the ground and, if they resist, tackle them and put them in cuffs." "“This is how situations go so, so badly—yet justifiably, legally,” Skinner said. Police officers often encounter people during the worst moments of their lives, and Skinner believes that his role is partly to resolve trouble and partly to prevent people from crossing the line from what he calls “near-crime” into “actual crime.” The goal, he said, is “to slow things down, using the power of human interaction more than the power of the state.”"

hguant 6y ago

On paper. I hang out a lot with a lot of former US infantry guys on discord, and they talk all the time about how rule one was come back alive, and rule two was 'make sure you all get your stories straight.' This mythos of the American warfighter being above and beyond is propaganda. Good propaganda, because it has some basis in truth, but it whitewashes a lot of nastiness.

baq 6y ago
at there are rules. you shouldn't have to go to Hague to win a case against your own sheriff.
MperorM 6y ago
This was the case for the danish military in Iraq and Afghanistan as well. The people I feel worst for are the soldiers themselves. You're informed over and over about the rules of engagement, and when you get there none of it applies. If you don't shoot first, then your next to you friend will die. Obviously you're going to break the rules in that situation, it's what any human would do. Now you have to live the rest of your life, knowing you broke conventions. You should be tried like the war-criminal you are. Or so it feels. While I disagreed with the west's involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan, I have the utmost respect for the soldiers who fought there. They deserve a set of rules can realistically be followed.

ulisesrmzroche 6y ago

Propaganda. It’s the exact opposite.