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I wonder if it’s the other way around. With WSL2 you can give Microsoft credit for actually getting Linux on the Desktop. Probably not what most expect from Li

I wonder if it’s the other way around. With WSL2 you can give Microsoft credit for actually getting Linux on the Desktop. Probably not what most expect from Linux on the Desktop. But hey, if you still can’t properly support 4K scaling in 2020, it’s never going to happen. It will probably always be a fringe group. Unless something really changes within the mentality of the open-source / Linux community.

vetinari 6y ago
And here I'm, running 4K linux desktop for years already. But hey, for some people linux will never do anything right.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  90% of Linux Desktops could experience a problem and as soon as someone reports it another guy would come out of the woodwork and shout that it works for him.
  - tolien 6y ago
    I mean, there's a whole lot of people in this thread saying that Windows scaling works perfectly for them when it definitely doesn't for me (use Windows-arrow to move browser window from a 4k to a 2k monitor and back again a few times, it'll eventually change shape and size). Just like reporting Ubuntu bugs feels like shouting into the void, what are your chances as an end user of MS quickly fixing a bug you find?
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
      The experience of finding solutions to Windows problems, which is in fact a significant portion of my day job, is vastly superior regardless of the fact that opening issues with Microsoft support is useless. For one, things generally aren't radically overhauled ever 2 years making all previous documentation on a subject obsolete. For two, when you talk with other Windows admins about a problem you're having, you don't get "well it works for me" presented as though it is somehow helpful.
      - vetinari 6y ago
        When you talk to Linux admins, they don't try to claim that something you know very well on your platform doesn't work either. Windows folks, come out of woodwork doing claims about things they have zero knowledge about. Or they heard about it 20 years ago and think that nothing changed since then, despite everything being overhauled every 2 years.
        AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
        > When you talk to Linux admins, they don't try to claim that something you know very well on your platform doesn't work either. In Windows land I don't have to know something very well to get reasonable help on it. Besides which, I know from personal experience that Linux Desktop people will assume all sorts of things about you. Quite often I will ask something like "is it possible to make X do Y?" and the response will be something like "you shouldn't do Y. Why do you want to do Y? You should do Z instead, I've only ever needed to do Z".
        vetinari 6y ago
        In Windows land, there's as much as incompetent advice as in Linux one. It is about people, not systems. > Quite often I will ask something like "is it possible to make X do Y?" and the response will be something like "you shouldn't do Y. Why do you want to do Y? You should do Z instead, I've only ever needed to do Z". Ever seen the answers in Microsoft Community? It is either this, or a complete misdirection, so some Microsoft contractor could prove his productivity, and in the end solving nothing. --- I'm using all three desktop systems: Linux, Mac and Windows. No, the grass is not greener on either side. Every single of them has its problems, and every one of them has its stronger points. However, "if you still can’t properly support 4K scaling in 2020" is complete nonsense.
        tolien 6y ago
        > Ever seen the answers in Microsoft Community? It is either this, or a complete misdirection, so some Microsoft contractor could prove his productivity, and in the end solving nothing. Just reinstall Windows, that'll fix all your problems! (/s)
  - thrwyoilarticle 6y ago
    The actual quote is >if you still can’t properly support 4K scaling in 2020 To which this is an entirely reasonable response.
  - michaelcampbell 6y ago
    cite? And more seriously, that can be said of anything. Or, the reverse; it could work for 99.9% of the people, but one comes out of the woodwork on HN threads and points out it doesn't for them or "someone they know", then all of a sudden it's considered broken.
umanwizard 6y ago
I run Linux on the desktop and it works fine for my needs. Who said it had to be everything to everyone?
- louwrentius 6y ago
  The idea behind Linux on the Desktop was always that it would take over the world and defeat Windows and Mac
  - umanwizard 6y ago
    Indeed. I’m saying that was always a silly idea and I don’t see the point of it.
  - thrwyoilarticle 6y ago
    That's one hell of a projection
  - vetinari 6y ago
    Nah, nobody promised that for today or tomorrow. Just wait for a few decades ;)
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  > Who said it had to be everything to everyone? Sadly, a lot of zealous Linux Desktop Evangelists exist and are extremely vocal.
DrBazza 6y ago
> if you still can’t properly support 4K scaling in 2020 Please elaborate? I've been using KDE with scaling and 4K monitor plus a widescreen for the last few years.
- stevepike 6y ago
  I run KDE with two 4k screens and there are two things that don't work as of 2020. 1. X can't handle independent screen scaling of two different DPIs. I have 24" and 27" screens and on windows I can have the 24" one at 2x and the 27" one at 1.5x and it "just works". In X I have both at 1.5x. 2. Wayland supports independently scaling the two screens. Unfortunately programs that don't support wayland run through something called XWayland, which upscales them in a crude way that makes the fonts blurry. It's pretty much unusable because of this to have an XWayland app (this includes chrome, firefox, and emacs) running on a 4k screen in wayland, at least on KDE. It's frustrating because it's SO CLOSE. There are WIP branches of both browsers running on wayland (but they're not stable for me) and once those land I think everything will finally work. All this said I do still use KDE on X daily as my development environment, but every time I boot back into Windows I'm frustrated again by how much better the scaling is.
  - rjsw 6y ago
    It looks like XWayland handles this by just reporting that every screen is 0mm x 0mm, some applications don't like this.
  - mcjiggerlog 6y ago
    Just to add to this, non-integer (AKA fractional) scaling also works substantially worse on gnome for me than in windows. It even is hidden behind a switch with a warning that it "May increase power usage, lower speed, or reduce display sharpness". I can confirm all three. Given pretty much all laptop screens manufactured these days look best with about 125%-150% scaling, this is a pretty big issue.
ZanyProgrammer 6y ago
I always thought Microsoft would simply make their own brand of Linux (somehow? who knows) that would be all sorts of Microsoftified, which seems easier and better than worrying about Windows backward compatibility by making Windows Linuxified. But the success of WSL would seem to indicate they aren't really in the market for their own flavor of Linux.
rbanffy 6y ago
I'm using Linux on my desktop since 2003 or so. Migrated my mom (85 yo, mostly retired) around 2005. We are both quite happy with it.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  Linux Desktop Evangelism playbook entry #4: "My grandma uses it". The Linux Desktop Evangelist believes that this demonstrates that Linux Desktop is not difficult to use, but what it actually demonstrates is simply that Linux makes a really good appliance. As long as you don't ask more of it than one or two carefully accounted for use cases, you won't see a problem. Attempt to step out of the box though...
  - rbanffy 6y ago
    Writing documents and using spreadsheets, creating presentations, reading and responding to e-mails, and browsing the web, which is what she uses, covers pretty much 99.999% of the uses a computer gets. Do you have a concrete use case where Linux fails and Windows succeeds?
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
      Whatever I tell you, you will have an excuse. For instance, if I say I do something requiring an application for which there is no good OSS equivalent you'll tell me it isn't Linux's fault companies don't port their software to an OS with ludicrous levels of fragmentation that break compatibility nearly every release. I have been in this argument many, many times over the past 2 decades. It is always the same. Deny there are problems, suggest insufficient alternatives, even recommend just changing their use case entirely. Anything to avoid saying "yeah, Linux actually isn't good for that".
      - rbanffy 6y ago
        Linux isn't good for making Windows users happy.
  - 6y ago
ekidd 6y ago
> But hey, if you still can’t properly support 4K scaling in 2020, it’s never going to happen. I have a 4K Ubuntu laptop from Dell. The text and GUI automatically scaled to the right size (except for one old program). And I plugged in an external 4K monitor using HDMI and it just worked. I'm sure there are hardware configurations that don't work as nicely, because Linux supports a ton of weird hardware. But it's easy to buy high-quality Linux systems.
- louwrentius 6y ago
  A friend of mine who is a sw developer who worked on Linux for years got a 4K display and then switched to Windows because many apps don’t play well with resolution scaling.
  - gen3 6y ago
    Did he use a “full featured” DE? From what I’ve seen, if you are not on KDE or Gnome, scaling support is normally up to yourself.
- eznat 6y ago
  Every time someone says "[basic feature] does not work on Linux", someone else comes and says it's always worked fine for him. I'm not saying you are lying, but you are probably in a minority. I've also had problems with scaling on Linux and I gave up on it. Also, having two screens with different scaling was completely unsupported, unlike on Windows.
  - ubercow13 6y ago
    Why do you assume they’re a minority? If every time someone mentions something didn’t work, 10 other people explain that it can actually work, maybe that should be telling you something different.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
      Because a lot of people don't report that it doesn't work, they just stop using things that don't work. Those that do report it get "Works for me (TM)!" --or perhaps "Try a different distro (TM)!"-- in response instead of anything helpful, so why bother? Even someone like me has long since stopped reporting bugs to Linux Desktop projects because of the above, and the fact that a lot of times the bug is already in the issue tracker and has been for years so clearly no one gives a damn anyway.
michaelmrose 6y ago
If you care about software freedom WSL isn't a meaningful benefit.
mixmastamyk 6y ago
Ubuntu Mate on two Dell 4k monitors, been working great for at least five years, possibly more.

vetinari 6y ago

And here I'm, running 4K linux desktop for years already. But hey, for some people linux will never do anything right.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
90% of Linux Desktops could experience a problem and as soon as someone reports it another guy would come out of the woodwork and shout that it works for him.
- tolien 6y ago
  I mean, there's a whole lot of people in this thread saying that Windows scaling works perfectly for them when it definitely doesn't for me (use Windows-arrow to move browser window from a 4k to a 2k monitor and back again a few times, it'll eventually change shape and size). Just like reporting Ubuntu bugs feels like shouting into the void, what are your chances as an end user of MS quickly fixing a bug you find?
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    The experience of finding solutions to Windows problems, which is in fact a significant portion of my day job, is vastly superior regardless of the fact that opening issues with Microsoft support is useless. For one, things generally aren't radically overhauled ever 2 years making all previous documentation on a subject obsolete. For two, when you talk with other Windows admins about a problem you're having, you don't get "well it works for me" presented as though it is somehow helpful.
    - vetinari 6y ago
      When you talk to Linux admins, they don't try to claim that something you know very well on your platform doesn't work either. Windows folks, come out of woodwork doing claims about things they have zero knowledge about. Or they heard about it 20 years ago and think that nothing changed since then, despite everything being overhauled every 2 years.
      - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
        > When you talk to Linux admins, they don't try to claim that something you know very well on your platform doesn't work either. In Windows land I don't have to know something very well to get reasonable help on it. Besides which, I know from personal experience that Linux Desktop people will assume all sorts of things about you. Quite often I will ask something like "is it possible to make X do Y?" and the response will be something like "you shouldn't do Y. Why do you want to do Y? You should do Z instead, I've only ever needed to do Z".
        vetinari 6y ago
        In Windows land, there's as much as incompetent advice as in Linux one. It is about people, not systems. > Quite often I will ask something like "is it possible to make X do Y?" and the response will be something like "you shouldn't do Y. Why do you want to do Y? You should do Z instead, I've only ever needed to do Z". Ever seen the answers in Microsoft Community? It is either this, or a complete misdirection, so some Microsoft contractor could prove his productivity, and in the end solving nothing. --- I'm using all three desktop systems: Linux, Mac and Windows. No, the grass is not greener on either side. Every single of them has its problems, and every one of them has its stronger points. However, "if you still can’t properly support 4K scaling in 2020" is complete nonsense.
        tolien 6y ago
        > Ever seen the answers in Microsoft Community? It is either this, or a complete misdirection, so some Microsoft contractor could prove his productivity, and in the end solving nothing. Just reinstall Windows, that'll fix all your problems! (/s)
- thrwyoilarticle 6y ago
  The actual quote is >if you still can’t properly support 4K scaling in 2020 To which this is an entirely reasonable response.
- michaelcampbell 6y ago
  cite? And more seriously, that can be said of anything. Or, the reverse; it could work for 99.9% of the people, but one comes out of the woodwork on HN threads and points out it doesn't for them or "someone they know", then all of a sudden it's considered broken.

umanwizard 6y ago

I run Linux on the desktop and it works fine for my needs. Who said it had to be everything to everyone?

louwrentius 6y ago
The idea behind Linux on the Desktop was always that it would take over the world and defeat Windows and Mac
- umanwizard 6y ago
  Indeed. I’m saying that was always a silly idea and I don’t see the point of it.
- thrwyoilarticle 6y ago
  That's one hell of a projection
- vetinari 6y ago
  Nah, nobody promised that for today or tomorrow. Just wait for a few decades ;)
AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
> Who said it had to be everything to everyone? Sadly, a lot of zealous Linux Desktop Evangelists exist and are extremely vocal.

DrBazza 6y ago

> if you still can’t properly support 4K scaling in 2020 Please elaborate? I've been using KDE with scaling and 4K monitor plus a widescreen for the last few years.

stevepike 6y ago
I run KDE with two 4k screens and there are two things that don't work as of 2020. 1. X can't handle independent screen scaling of two different DPIs. I have 24" and 27" screens and on windows I can have the 24" one at 2x and the 27" one at 1.5x and it "just works". In X I have both at 1.5x. 2. Wayland supports independently scaling the two screens. Unfortunately programs that don't support wayland run through something called XWayland, which upscales them in a crude way that makes the fonts blurry. It's pretty much unusable because of this to have an XWayland app (this includes chrome, firefox, and emacs) running on a 4k screen in wayland, at least on KDE. It's frustrating because it's SO CLOSE. There are WIP branches of both browsers running on wayland (but they're not stable for me) and once those land I think everything will finally work. All this said I do still use KDE on X daily as my development environment, but every time I boot back into Windows I'm frustrated again by how much better the scaling is.
- rjsw 6y ago
  It looks like XWayland handles this by just reporting that every screen is 0mm x 0mm, some applications don't like this.
- mcjiggerlog 6y ago
  Just to add to this, non-integer (AKA fractional) scaling also works substantially worse on gnome for me than in windows. It even is hidden behind a switch with a warning that it "May increase power usage, lower speed, or reduce display sharpness". I can confirm all three. Given pretty much all laptop screens manufactured these days look best with about 125%-150% scaling, this is a pretty big issue.

ZanyProgrammer 6y ago

I always thought Microsoft would simply make their own brand of Linux (somehow? who knows) that would be all sorts of Microsoftified, which seems easier and better than worrying about Windows backward compatibility by making Windows Linuxified. But the success of WSL would seem to indicate they aren't really in the market for their own flavor of Linux.

rbanffy 6y ago

I'm using Linux on my desktop since 2003 or so. Migrated my mom (85 yo, mostly retired) around 2005. We are both quite happy with it.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
Linux Desktop Evangelism playbook entry #4: "My grandma uses it". The Linux Desktop Evangelist believes that this demonstrates that Linux Desktop is not difficult to use, but what it actually demonstrates is simply that Linux makes a really good appliance. As long as you don't ask more of it than one or two carefully accounted for use cases, you won't see a problem. Attempt to step out of the box though...
- rbanffy 6y ago
  Writing documents and using spreadsheets, creating presentations, reading and responding to e-mails, and browsing the web, which is what she uses, covers pretty much 99.999% of the uses a computer gets. Do you have a concrete use case where Linux fails and Windows succeeds?
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    Whatever I tell you, you will have an excuse. For instance, if I say I do something requiring an application for which there is no good OSS equivalent you'll tell me it isn't Linux's fault companies don't port their software to an OS with ludicrous levels of fragmentation that break compatibility nearly every release. I have been in this argument many, many times over the past 2 decades. It is always the same. Deny there are problems, suggest insufficient alternatives, even recommend just changing their use case entirely. Anything to avoid saying "yeah, Linux actually isn't good for that".
    - rbanffy 6y ago
      Linux isn't good for making Windows users happy.
- 6y ago

ekidd 6y ago

> But hey, if you still can’t properly support 4K scaling in 2020, it’s never going to happen. I have a 4K Ubuntu laptop from Dell. The text and GUI automatically scaled to the right size (except for one old program). And I plugged in an external 4K monitor using HDMI and it just worked. I'm sure there are hardware configurations that don't work as nicely, because Linux supports a ton of weird hardware. But it's easy to buy high-quality Linux systems.

louwrentius 6y ago
A friend of mine who is a sw developer who worked on Linux for years got a 4K display and then switched to Windows because many apps don’t play well with resolution scaling.
- gen3 6y ago
  Did he use a “full featured” DE? From what I’ve seen, if you are not on KDE or Gnome, scaling support is normally up to yourself.
eznat 6y ago
Every time someone says "[basic feature] does not work on Linux", someone else comes and says it's always worked fine for him. I'm not saying you are lying, but you are probably in a minority. I've also had problems with scaling on Linux and I gave up on it. Also, having two screens with different scaling was completely unsupported, unlike on Windows.
- ubercow13 6y ago
  Why do you assume they’re a minority? If every time someone mentions something didn’t work, 10 other people explain that it can actually work, maybe that should be telling you something different.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    Because a lot of people don't report that it doesn't work, they just stop using things that don't work. Those that do report it get "Works for me (TM)!" --or perhaps "Try a different distro (TM)!"-- in response instead of anything helpful, so why bother? Even someone like me has long since stopped reporting bugs to Linux Desktop projects because of the above, and the fact that a lot of times the bug is already in the issue tracker and has been for years so clearly no one gives a damn anyway.

michaelmrose 6y ago

If you care about software freedom WSL isn't a meaningful benefit.

mixmastamyk 6y ago

Ubuntu Mate on two Dell 4k monitors, been working great for at least five years, possibly more.