6 ms·

I don't know. I think it is much better that a few folks don't show up to trial than to criminalize being poor. If I remember correctly, we can reduce folks not

I don't know. I think it is much better that a few folks don't show up to trial than to criminalize being poor. If I remember correctly, we can reduce folks not showing up by simple measures, like calling to remind folks of trial dates and making sure folks have transportation to get to trial. Why the heck would we put low-and-medium risk folks in jail, to be put in a position to lose their job, house, and freaking children, when we can do these other things that don't criminalize poverty while having less disruption of life? If folks are found not guilty after spending weeks or months in jail (while being low to medium risk of fleeing), shouldn't we then shoulder the responsibility of fixing the life we've left in shambles? Especially since there was, indeed, other options we could have taken? We don't: At least in Indiana, even if you are found not guilty, you have administrative costs taken out of the bail amount you got back. And that's if you were lucky enough not to be forced to use a bondsman - then you won't get anything back (Yes, folks are court-ordered to use bondsman). I don't think we should be asking for a surety for low risk at all, and medium risk is iffy - and this is just for felonies. I don't see a good reason to hold anyone for a misdemeanor. I'm not certain that removing bondsman would make the US system more sane, though it does mean that you aren't charging an actual fee to get out, but instead returning (most of) bail if found not guilty.

0xBA5ED 6y ago
>I think it is much better that a few folks don't show up to trial than to criminalize being poor. >Why the heck would we put low-and-medium risk folks in jail, to be put in a position to lose their job, house, and freaking children, when we can do these other things that don't criminalize poverty while having less disruption of life? Keep in mind, it isn't easy to suddenly and accidentally get thrown in jail. If the violation is minor and non-violent, then by the time it gets to that point, the person will have had many chances to straighten up (more often than not) and simply chose to ignore the warnings.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > it isn't easy to suddenly and accidentally get thrown in jail. No one accidentally gets thrown in jail, its always an intentional act by another person. And it is very easy to suddenly get thrown in jail, particularly if you are poor and/or non-white. > If the violation is minor and non-violent, then by the time it gets to that point, the person will have had many chances to straighten up (more often than not) and simply chose to ignore the warnings. That's...very much not true. It might be true if you are referring to post-conviction incarceration, it is very much not true when talking about pre-trial confinement as a means of ensuring appearance. Plenty of minor and non-violent offenses are arrestable, rather than merely citable, even if the accused has no prior record.
  - DonHopkins 6y ago
    >No one accidentally gets thrown in jail, Just as no one accidentally falls on a crucifix in the shower. https://worldnewsdailyreport.com/catholic-priest-hospitalized-to-have-a-crucifix-removed-from-his-rectum/comment-page-1/ https://worldnewsdailyreport.com/catholic-priest-hospitalize...
- mtgx 6y ago
  > Keep in mind, it isn't easy to suddenly and accidentally get thrown in jail. Have you not paid attention to any protest in the US whatsoever in the past 10-15 years? It's VERY easy to get thrown in jail, even when judges have ruled mere months before that it's illegal for police to keep arresting protesters.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    A ruling that you can’t be arrested for protesting does not mean you can’t be arrested while protesting. Batter a cop? You’re probably going for a ride even if you were at a protest, which seems fairly reasonable.
    - Broken_Hippo 6y ago
      We have plenty of examples of peaceful people being arrested, though. Including journalists. All you really have to do is be there, and then you can be taken in with a slew of excuses.
      - sokoloff 6y ago
        What solution would you propose? That protests are 100% ironclad arrest-free zones? That seems...unworkable.
        Broken_Hippo 6y ago
        There is more than one way to handle protests. You can stand by and observe, only really going in when something is amiss... or show up in riot gear as your first option. The second choice has been the choice with BLM protests - but is rarely the choice with, say, anti-abortion activists. And you know, I don't get it: If an African-American man can keep his cool while having to police an KKK march, why can't cops in general keep their cool with these? Part of the issue is that folks are protesting the police themselves - namely, the systematic and blatant racism and police violence. The prudent measure, minimally, would be to have a background presence since they've not actually jumped on the chance to make real change. The Rodney King riots happened in 1992: We've had decades to try to change the face of policing. If anything, perhaps we should have started real change after any one of the incidences. Changed police immunity. Required more training. Try to reduce officer stress and weed out folks that were racist. Abolish police gangs. But that's much harder, and won't stop a protest while it is happening. But it would actually stop them.
- throwaway17_17 6y ago
  This is clearly not a universal truth in the US justice system. It can be very, very simple to be suddenly and through no criminal fault of a defendant’s own that they end up in jail. [1] 1 - source is myself, my clients, and my jurisdiction’s arrest statistics, along with many,many media reports hat prove your point not true.
  - throwaway316943 6y ago
    There seems to be a lot of confusion over this. I suppose because many people here don’t have direct experience. I’m wondering if there’s a good public source for arrest statistics and records that would go into more detail.
    - throwaway17_17 6y ago
      I would seriously doubt a good source exists. In fact, I am as certain as a single person in a single jurisdiction can be, that the records required to generate those statistics would require information unwillingly released from multiple governmental entities and that those entities would make it as hard as possible to generate meaningful data.
- Broken_Hippo 6y ago
  But it is easy to get thrown in jail. This is especially true if your skin isn't white enough: How many stories do you hear of folks being in jail for having the description, "Tall black male?". You act like everyone can avoid all things: Have you never met anyone put in jail for not paying child support when they don't have a job... in part, because they were put in jail for not paying child support? Or... you can live in a weed-friendly state and forget you have some in your car while traveling. Jail for drugs now. Heck, you can be jailed for being in a house with drugs, even if you weren't doing drugs yourself. "Visiting a common nuisance" is a thing they charge folks with [1]. I don't think it is as common now, but at one time, it wasn't uncommon to get arrested while walking home drunk for public intoxication, even though driving would have been criminal. Indiana cops used to wait outside bars to arrest folks for this. While it might be prohibited now, this ruined lives and stuff like this still happens. You don't have, "many chances". You just get caught or you don't, and you can get caught your first time. It happens. For some things, simply living in public housing increases your chances because of heavy police presence that isn't there for nicer neighborhoods: Sometimes nicer neighborhoods have conditions that make getting caught less because you are smoking weed in a spacious backyard rather than on a balcony where others can see and smell. [1]https://www.in.gov/meth/files/Visiting_or_Maintaining_a_Common_Nuisance.pdf https://www.in.gov/meth/files/Visiting_or_Maintaining_a_Comm...
  - 0xBA5ED 6y ago
    >But it is easy to get thrown in jail. This is especially true if your skin isn't white enough: How many stories do you hear of folks being in jail for having the description, "Tall black male?". I'm sorry to break your narrative, but this is NOT true in my experience at all. 99.999999% of the time, if you end up in jail, you knowingly engaged in questionable activity or associated yourself with criminal deviants. Doesn't matter what your skin color is despite the imbalanced frequency of reporting in the US.
    - alexilliamson 6y ago
      Do you work at a jail? You must have lots of firsthand experience if you can calculate that frequency with precision to the millionths.
nojokes 6y ago
Bail system is indeed inhuman. In the country I am from this does not exists. You could be jailed until court when there is high risk that you will continue to commit crimes or when you would hurt the investigation. No amount of money could reduce these risks. When you are found not guilty then there is a compensation for days spent in jail.
marcus_holmes 6y ago
> shouldn't we then shoulder the responsibility of fixing the life we've left in shambles? Especially if the charges are just dropped. That's got to be sooo hard - your life is a complete mess, everything you worked for is destroyed, because of... what? Some bureacratic mistake? A cop who wanted to get into the warm to do some paperwork? An overzealous politician wanting to "get tough on crime"? I wonder if the system would change if the state had to pay people waiting for a trial their normal salary while they waited? So at least they could keep up with rent/mortgages and other payments while they waited.
sokoloff 6y ago
What does forced to use a bondsman mean? Just that you can’t post your own bond from your pocket (which some jurisdictions allow, but how often does one have a bail amount of money in their pocket)? I bonded someone out a few decades ago and instantly became a bondsman by so doing. (I have no other connection to the industry before or, thankfully, since.) Based on the stream of paperwork I received threatening me with loss of bond money I posted, I’m not sure he ever returned to take care of the matter.
- Broken_Hippo 6y ago
  That is exactly what it means: Sometimes, the courts won't allow you to just post bail, but force you to pay a bondsman. There is no choice. (My brother had this stipulation when he was 17). And it isn't that you can pay for them out of your pocked. You would have had to go to a business, pay them, and they pay the courts.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    The specific question is “can you be his bondsman as I was for my colleague?”
    - Broken_Hippo 6y ago
      No. You'd have to go to a 3rd party that is licensed by the state. You can usually find the businesses around courthouses or jails. They are often open 24 hours a day and fairly brightly lit.
      - sokoloff 6y ago
        Ah. There were a half-dozen of those on the way to the jail. I seem to recall my colleague had a choice of posting $300 with a commercial bond agent who would then post the $2500 with the court or anyone could post the whole $2500 in cash at the jail directly. (Was in Florida in Feb 1997.)
        6y ago
gowld 6y ago
Bail bonds fees are about 10% of bail bonds. You don't get any of your bond fee back because you got a 90% discount on bail. It's essentially a payday loan, with all the pros and cons.
- Broken_Hippo 6y ago
  Yeah. I might not have as much issue with it, but the courts sometimes order you to use one. It is essentially a tax on being arrested at that point. You can get forced to use one, have your charges dropped or found not guilty, and then not get your fees. Then again, you'll have administrative fees taken out even if you pay out of pocket.

0xBA5ED 6y ago

>I think it is much better that a few folks don't show up to trial than to criminalize being poor. >Why the heck would we put low-and-medium risk folks in jail, to be put in a position to lose their job, house, and freaking children, when we can do these other things that don't criminalize poverty while having less disruption of life? Keep in mind, it isn't easy to suddenly and accidentally get thrown in jail. If the violation is minor and non-violent, then by the time it gets to that point, the person will have had many chances to straighten up (more often than not) and simply chose to ignore the warnings.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> it isn't easy to suddenly and accidentally get thrown in jail. No one accidentally gets thrown in jail, its always an intentional act by another person. And it is very easy to suddenly get thrown in jail, particularly if you are poor and/or non-white. > If the violation is minor and non-violent, then by the time it gets to that point, the person will have had many chances to straighten up (more often than not) and simply chose to ignore the warnings. That's...very much not true. It might be true if you are referring to post-conviction incarceration, it is very much not true when talking about pre-trial confinement as a means of ensuring appearance. Plenty of minor and non-violent offenses are arrestable, rather than merely citable, even if the accused has no prior record.
- DonHopkins 6y ago
  >No one accidentally gets thrown in jail, Just as no one accidentally falls on a crucifix in the shower. https://worldnewsdailyreport.com/catholic-priest-hospitalized-to-have-a-crucifix-removed-from-his-rectum/comment-page-1/ https://worldnewsdailyreport.com/catholic-priest-hospitalize...
mtgx 6y ago
> Keep in mind, it isn't easy to suddenly and accidentally get thrown in jail. Have you not paid attention to any protest in the US whatsoever in the past 10-15 years? It's VERY easy to get thrown in jail, even when judges have ruled mere months before that it's illegal for police to keep arresting protesters.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  A ruling that you can’t be arrested for protesting does not mean you can’t be arrested while protesting. Batter a cop? You’re probably going for a ride even if you were at a protest, which seems fairly reasonable.
  - Broken_Hippo 6y ago
    We have plenty of examples of peaceful people being arrested, though. Including journalists. All you really have to do is be there, and then you can be taken in with a slew of excuses.
    - sokoloff 6y ago
      What solution would you propose? That protests are 100% ironclad arrest-free zones? That seems...unworkable.
      - Broken_Hippo 6y ago
        There is more than one way to handle protests. You can stand by and observe, only really going in when something is amiss... or show up in riot gear as your first option. The second choice has been the choice with BLM protests - but is rarely the choice with, say, anti-abortion activists. And you know, I don't get it: If an African-American man can keep his cool while having to police an KKK march, why can't cops in general keep their cool with these? Part of the issue is that folks are protesting the police themselves - namely, the systematic and blatant racism and police violence. The prudent measure, minimally, would be to have a background presence since they've not actually jumped on the chance to make real change. The Rodney King riots happened in 1992: We've had decades to try to change the face of policing. If anything, perhaps we should have started real change after any one of the incidences. Changed police immunity. Required more training. Try to reduce officer stress and weed out folks that were racist. Abolish police gangs. But that's much harder, and won't stop a protest while it is happening. But it would actually stop them.
throwaway17_17 6y ago
This is clearly not a universal truth in the US justice system. It can be very, very simple to be suddenly and through no criminal fault of a defendant’s own that they end up in jail. [1] 1 - source is myself, my clients, and my jurisdiction’s arrest statistics, along with many,many media reports hat prove your point not true.
- throwaway316943 6y ago
  There seems to be a lot of confusion over this. I suppose because many people here don’t have direct experience. I’m wondering if there’s a good public source for arrest statistics and records that would go into more detail.
  - throwaway17_17 6y ago
    I would seriously doubt a good source exists. In fact, I am as certain as a single person in a single jurisdiction can be, that the records required to generate those statistics would require information unwillingly released from multiple governmental entities and that those entities would make it as hard as possible to generate meaningful data.
Broken_Hippo 6y ago
But it is easy to get thrown in jail. This is especially true if your skin isn't white enough: How many stories do you hear of folks being in jail for having the description, "Tall black male?". You act like everyone can avoid all things: Have you never met anyone put in jail for not paying child support when they don't have a job... in part, because they were put in jail for not paying child support? Or... you can live in a weed-friendly state and forget you have some in your car while traveling. Jail for drugs now. Heck, you can be jailed for being in a house with drugs, even if you weren't doing drugs yourself. "Visiting a common nuisance" is a thing they charge folks with [1]. I don't think it is as common now, but at one time, it wasn't uncommon to get arrested while walking home drunk for public intoxication, even though driving would have been criminal. Indiana cops used to wait outside bars to arrest folks for this. While it might be prohibited now, this ruined lives and stuff like this still happens. You don't have, "many chances". You just get caught or you don't, and you can get caught your first time. It happens. For some things, simply living in public housing increases your chances because of heavy police presence that isn't there for nicer neighborhoods: Sometimes nicer neighborhoods have conditions that make getting caught less because you are smoking weed in a spacious backyard rather than on a balcony where others can see and smell. [1]https://www.in.gov/meth/files/Visiting_or_Maintaining_a_Common_Nuisance.pdf https://www.in.gov/meth/files/Visiting_or_Maintaining_a_Comm...
- 0xBA5ED 6y ago
  >But it is easy to get thrown in jail. This is especially true if your skin isn't white enough: How many stories do you hear of folks being in jail for having the description, "Tall black male?". I'm sorry to break your narrative, but this is NOT true in my experience at all. 99.999999% of the time, if you end up in jail, you knowingly engaged in questionable activity or associated yourself with criminal deviants. Doesn't matter what your skin color is despite the imbalanced frequency of reporting in the US.
  - alexilliamson 6y ago
    Do you work at a jail? You must have lots of firsthand experience if you can calculate that frequency with precision to the millionths.

nojokes 6y ago

Bail system is indeed inhuman. In the country I am from this does not exists. You could be jailed until court when there is high risk that you will continue to commit crimes or when you would hurt the investigation. No amount of money could reduce these risks. When you are found not guilty then there is a compensation for days spent in jail.

marcus_holmes 6y ago

> shouldn't we then shoulder the responsibility of fixing the life we've left in shambles? Especially if the charges are just dropped. That's got to be sooo hard - your life is a complete mess, everything you worked for is destroyed, because of... what? Some bureacratic mistake? A cop who wanted to get into the warm to do some paperwork? An overzealous politician wanting to "get tough on crime"? I wonder if the system would change if the state had to pay people waiting for a trial their normal salary while they waited? So at least they could keep up with rent/mortgages and other payments while they waited.

sokoloff 6y ago

What does forced to use a bondsman mean? Just that you can’t post your own bond from your pocket (which some jurisdictions allow, but how often does one have a bail amount of money in their pocket)? I bonded someone out a few decades ago and instantly became a bondsman by so doing. (I have no other connection to the industry before or, thankfully, since.) Based on the stream of paperwork I received threatening me with loss of bond money I posted, I’m not sure he ever returned to take care of the matter.

Broken_Hippo 6y ago
That is exactly what it means: Sometimes, the courts won't allow you to just post bail, but force you to pay a bondsman. There is no choice. (My brother had this stipulation when he was 17). And it isn't that you can pay for them out of your pocked. You would have had to go to a business, pay them, and they pay the courts.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  The specific question is “can you be his bondsman as I was for my colleague?”
  - Broken_Hippo 6y ago
    No. You'd have to go to a 3rd party that is licensed by the state. You can usually find the businesses around courthouses or jails. They are often open 24 hours a day and fairly brightly lit.
    - sokoloff 6y ago
      Ah. There were a half-dozen of those on the way to the jail. I seem to recall my colleague had a choice of posting $300 with a commercial bond agent who would then post the $2500 with the court or anyone could post the whole $2500 in cash at the jail directly. (Was in Florida in Feb 1997.)
      - 6y ago

gowld 6y ago

Bail bonds fees are about 10% of bail bonds. You don't get any of your bond fee back because you got a 90% discount on bail. It's essentially a payday loan, with all the pros and cons.

Broken_Hippo 6y ago
Yeah. I might not have as much issue with it, but the courts sometimes order you to use one. It is essentially a tax on being arrested at that point. You can get forced to use one, have your charges dropped or found not guilty, and then not get your fees. Then again, you'll have administrative fees taken out even if you pay out of pocket.