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Lib like this or Redux seems like to try to better help people who don't have CS back ground to develop. Anyone who had CS training should be able to state mana

Lib like this or Redux seems like to try to better help people who don't have CS back ground to develop. Anyone who had CS training should be able to state management in plain JS or other general purpose programming language.

sjogress 6y ago
The main boon of Redux et al in my experience is that they impose some rules as to where and how state changers are handled, meaning less weird inconsistencies when working in a team (especielly if the team members change over time).
bauerd 6y ago
Just because you can doesn't mean you should. A CS degree doesn't mean you won't reinvent the wheel poorly.
- Udik 6y ago
  Just to state the obvious: there isn't much to reinvent in a wheel, but certainly it's not a one-size-fits-all kind of object. That wheel might have been designed by a team of brilliant engineers and built with the latest super materials, but if it's a race car's wheel I wouldn't mount it on a bicycle.
nkozyra 6y ago
I don't recall my cs program actually dealing much with state management as a standalone concept. I feel like you could take this stance on almost any framework or library.
- concerned_user 6y ago
  Probably because JavaScript as it is used in browsers and especially React is asynchronous and in CS you traditionally study classic programming languages which are mostly synchronous code, even if it is multi-threaded you still command where and how access to shared data happens most of the time. In JavaScript and React asynchronous aspect is mostly hidden from you hence need for things like Reudx.
  - nkozyra 6y ago
    No I understand the concurrency challenges with state, my point was that's not really a topic that's front and center.
onion2k 6y ago
Redux was first released more than 5 years ago, it's had more than 3000 commits merged from more than 800 developers, and there have been 69 releases. That's a lot of learning about how to do state management in JS. I would argue that's beyond what an individual developer could ever do. Mobx has similarly large numbers - almost 3000 commits from more than 400 developers. No doubt other popular state libraries also have those sorts of numbers. If you need a general state management library you'd be crazy to write your own. You might be able to do 90% of what the big, popular libraries have done, but that's just settling for something 10% worse for no good reason. Why give up all that knowledge, testing, and creativity when you can build on top of it? Let other people make the mistakes.
- christophilus 6y ago
  The facts are correct, but your conclusion doesn’t follow.
- deepstack 6y ago
  Having more developers, commits and code doesn't mean better software! In general CS course I took in Uni over 20 years ago, one learns about data structure and state of an application with multiple threads. It is something 'web developer' lacks as web was originally meant to be a document based. I am not saying developers can't pick that up during their development career, it is just that the bar for being a developer has being simnifically lowered in the last few years. It turned more into a buzz word now days.
  - onion2k 6y ago
    It is something 'web developer' lacks as web was originally meant to be a document based. This is unrelated but it's something that annoys me. Even in Tim Berners-Lee's original memo proposing the web he stated "Hypertext allows documents to be linked into "live" data so that every time the link is followed, the information is retrieved. If one sacrifices portability, it is possible so make following a link fire up a special application, so that diagnostic programs, for example, could be linked directly into the maintenance guide." The idea that the web could be about more than static documents was there right from the beginning. [1] https://www.w3.org/History/1989/proposal.html https://www.w3.org/History/1989/proposal.html - Live Links section
bfrydl 6y ago
I think the people disagreeing with this greatly overestimate what is actually contained in a library like Redux. An entire ecosystem sprang up around it and most of it is completely unnecessary and overly complex. The base library itself is almost nothing at all and should not be hard for anyone with experience to independently create.

sjogress 6y ago

The main boon of Redux et al in my experience is that they impose some rules as to where and how state changers are handled, meaning less weird inconsistencies when working in a team (especielly if the team members change over time).

bauerd 6y ago

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. A CS degree doesn't mean you won't reinvent the wheel poorly.

Udik 6y ago
Just to state the obvious: there isn't much to reinvent in a wheel, but certainly it's not a one-size-fits-all kind of object. That wheel might have been designed by a team of brilliant engineers and built with the latest super materials, but if it's a race car's wheel I wouldn't mount it on a bicycle.

nkozyra 6y ago

I don't recall my cs program actually dealing much with state management as a standalone concept. I feel like you could take this stance on almost any framework or library.

concerned_user 6y ago
Probably because JavaScript as it is used in browsers and especially React is asynchronous and in CS you traditionally study classic programming languages which are mostly synchronous code, even if it is multi-threaded you still command where and how access to shared data happens most of the time. In JavaScript and React asynchronous aspect is mostly hidden from you hence need for things like Reudx.
- nkozyra 6y ago
  No I understand the concurrency challenges with state, my point was that's not really a topic that's front and center.

onion2k 6y ago

Redux was first released more than 5 years ago, it's had more than 3000 commits merged from more than 800 developers, and there have been 69 releases. That's a lot of learning about how to do state management in JS. I would argue that's beyond what an individual developer could ever do. Mobx has similarly large numbers - almost 3000 commits from more than 400 developers. No doubt other popular state libraries also have those sorts of numbers. If you need a general state management library you'd be crazy to write your own. You might be able to do 90% of what the big, popular libraries have done, but that's just settling for something 10% worse for no good reason. Why give up all that knowledge, testing, and creativity when you can build on top of it? Let other people make the mistakes.

christophilus 6y ago
The facts are correct, but your conclusion doesn’t follow.
deepstack 6y ago
Having more developers, commits and code doesn't mean better software! In general CS course I took in Uni over 20 years ago, one learns about data structure and state of an application with multiple threads. It is something 'web developer' lacks as web was originally meant to be a document based. I am not saying developers can't pick that up during their development career, it is just that the bar for being a developer has being simnifically lowered in the last few years. It turned more into a buzz word now days.
- onion2k 6y ago
  It is something 'web developer' lacks as web was originally meant to be a document based. This is unrelated but it's something that annoys me. Even in Tim Berners-Lee's original memo proposing the web he stated "Hypertext allows documents to be linked into "live" data so that every time the link is followed, the information is retrieved. If one sacrifices portability, it is possible so make following a link fire up a special application, so that diagnostic programs, for example, could be linked directly into the maintenance guide." The idea that the web could be about more than static documents was there right from the beginning. [1] https://www.w3.org/History/1989/proposal.html https://www.w3.org/History/1989/proposal.html - Live Links section

bfrydl 6y ago

I think the people disagreeing with this greatly overestimate what is actually contained in a library like Redux. An entire ecosystem sprang up around it and most of it is completely unnecessary and overly complex. The base library itself is almost nothing at all and should not be hard for anyone with experience to independently create.