5 ms·

Unpopular opinion: If you're a "digital nomad", you're not a tourist. You're working.

howlgarnish 6y ago
That's true by definition? But you're probably not displacing jobs for the locals, which is the typical justification for why it's hard for foreigners to get local work permits.
- wdqwfdqwfqwf 6y ago
  "by definition" always depends on the definition. Tax laws, immigration, I'd say all our reality isn't updated to "people working remotely". If you detach your job from your (real) environment, this introduces all kinds of issues. You don't pay the share to one of the societies you're embedded into, like taxes. You'd have to be registered as workforce - which you're not, if you're a tourist.
- lmm 6y ago
  The rationale I've seen is that you're contributing less (risk-adjusted) to the country's economy than either a tourist (who would be spending more) or someone on a work visa (who would have a stable job and be paying local taxes) would.
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    The belief that DNs necessarily pay less than tourists is largely based on stereotypes. In order to be able to focus on work, DNs tend to look for full apartment rentals, often in relatively upscale places where fast and reliable internet is guaranteed. In many countries that means they are already paying less than ordinary backpackers who are staying in hostel accommodation.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- toomanybeersies 6y ago
  > But you're probably not displacing jobs for the locals That's incredibly arrogant and patronising, you're absolutely displacing jobs from locals, who could also working remotely for a foreign company
  - howlgarnish 6y ago
    You appear to be subscribing to a weird variant of the lump of labor fallacy here. There's nothing stopping the locals from working remotely for a foreign company -- except a shared language, connections in the field, relevant skills and a proven track record, which are why the nomad is employed by the foreign company and the local is not.
pjmlp 6y ago
In theory yes, although you probably want to declare yourself as tourist in many countries, unless you want to have some fun with local authorities.
- pjc50 6y ago
  .. until they find out you've been working without a visa, which (while unlikely) will result in even more "fun". (I do side-eye people who refer to westerners working illegally in the non-west as "digital nomads" while referring to non-westerners doing the same in the west as "illegals")
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Sure, and I am not advocating to do it illegally, just making the point that what one states at the border can have wider consequences that one imagines.
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    The "digital nomad" community certainly isn't limited to Westerners. There are quite a few digital nomads from Arab nations. And though Indians have weak passports and can't travel to too many countries visa-free, you still meet many Indian DNs in e.g. Nepal.
  - toomanybeersies 6y ago
    Digital nomads? They're digital colonists. It's colonialism in everything but name.
    - howlgarnish 6y ago
      I probably shouldn't, but I'll bite: how does a dude with a laptop in a beachside cafe implement "the policy of a country seeking to extend or retain its authority over other people or territories, generally with the aim of economic dominance"? They're likely not even paying taxes to their home country.
      - 6y ago
mongol 6y ago
I would look at where you pay your taxes.
tim333 6y ago
It's a grey area. What if you go see some tourist sites but think about work a bit? It's not clear where you draw the line.
fxtentacle 6y ago
Yes, but you're not paying taxes in the country whose infrastructure you rely on. So there are some locals who consider the nomads to be freeloaders of some sorts, and that isn't entirely without merit.
strogonoff 6y ago
I think it is arguable[0] whether the (preexisting in many countries) letter of immigration law with blanket “do you work or not” actually aligns with the spirit of the law, which may have well been intended to be “do you work in our country” but was not written the former way because of remote work not being so widespread at the time. I believe the smoke test for tourist status, as applied to digital nomads, is whether one’s customers/employer are companies with official representation in chosen country of residence. If not, they are (1) not stealing jobs from locals, and (2) actually boosting local economy, infusing it with cash earned overseas. Possibly hinting at this are also recent programs in some countries[1] that in a way encourage “digital nomadism”, offering terms that are actually more beneficial compared to tourist status (e.g., longer stay times). [0] Of course, this argument most likely won’t fly if the immigration officer is out to get you. IANAL. [1] Georgia comes to mind
WildGreenLeave 6y ago
I do agree with you, but for Thailand (and many other countries) 'Digital nomad' isn't a thing. You are there either as a tourist, or you are there for business. If it is for business you will need to have a registered business, freelancing doesn't qualify. I tried to fly there on a business visa but I wasn't able to get one because Thailand doesn't recognise a 'self employed' person as a business.

That's true by definition? But you're probably not displacing jobs for the locals, which is the typical justification for why it's hard for foreigners to get local work permits.

wdqwfdqwfqwf 6y ago
"by definition" always depends on the definition. Tax laws, immigration, I'd say all our reality isn't updated to "people working remotely". If you detach your job from your (real) environment, this introduces all kinds of issues. You don't pay the share to one of the societies you're embedded into, like taxes. You'd have to be registered as workforce - which you're not, if you're a tourist.
lmm 6y ago
The rationale I've seen is that you're contributing less (risk-adjusted) to the country's economy than either a tourist (who would be spending more) or someone on a work visa (who would have a stable job and be paying local taxes) would.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  The belief that DNs necessarily pay less than tourists is largely based on stereotypes. In order to be able to focus on work, DNs tend to look for full apartment rentals, often in relatively upscale places where fast and reliable internet is guaranteed. In many countries that means they are already paying less than ordinary backpackers who are staying in hostel accommodation.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
toomanybeersies 6y ago
> But you're probably not displacing jobs for the locals That's incredibly arrogant and patronising, you're absolutely displacing jobs from locals, who could also working remotely for a foreign company
- howlgarnish 6y ago
  You appear to be subscribing to a weird variant of the lump of labor fallacy here. There's nothing stopping the locals from working remotely for a foreign company -- except a shared language, connections in the field, relevant skills and a proven track record, which are why the nomad is employed by the foreign company and the local is not.

pjmlp 6y ago

In theory yes, although you probably want to declare yourself as tourist in many countries, unless you want to have some fun with local authorities.

pjc50 6y ago
.. until they find out you've been working without a visa, which (while unlikely) will result in even more "fun". (I do side-eye people who refer to westerners working illegally in the non-west as "digital nomads" while referring to non-westerners doing the same in the west as "illegals")
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Sure, and I am not advocating to do it illegally, just making the point that what one states at the border can have wider consequences that one imagines.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  The "digital nomad" community certainly isn't limited to Westerners. There are quite a few digital nomads from Arab nations. And though Indians have weak passports and can't travel to too many countries visa-free, you still meet many Indian DNs in e.g. Nepal.
- toomanybeersies 6y ago
  Digital nomads? They're digital colonists. It's colonialism in everything but name.
  - howlgarnish 6y ago
    I probably shouldn't, but I'll bite: how does a dude with a laptop in a beachside cafe implement "the policy of a country seeking to extend or retain its authority over other people or territories, generally with the aim of economic dominance"? They're likely not even paying taxes to their home country.
    - 6y ago

mongol 6y ago

I would look at where you pay your taxes.

tim333 6y ago

It's a grey area. What if you go see some tourist sites but think about work a bit? It's not clear where you draw the line.

fxtentacle 6y ago

Yes, but you're not paying taxes in the country whose infrastructure you rely on. So there are some locals who consider the nomads to be freeloaders of some sorts, and that isn't entirely without merit.

strogonoff 6y ago

I think it is arguable[0] whether the (preexisting in many countries) letter of immigration law with blanket “do you work or not” actually aligns with the spirit of the law, which may have well been intended to be “do you work in our country” but was not written the former way because of remote work not being so widespread at the time. I believe the smoke test for tourist status, as applied to digital nomads, is whether one’s customers/employer are companies with official representation in chosen country of residence. If not, they are (1) not stealing jobs from locals, and (2) actually boosting local economy, infusing it with cash earned overseas. Possibly hinting at this are also recent programs in some countries[1] that in a way encourage “digital nomadism”, offering terms that are actually more beneficial compared to tourist status (e.g., longer stay times). [0] Of course, this argument most likely won’t fly if the immigration officer is out to get you. IANAL. [1] Georgia comes to mind

WildGreenLeave 6y ago

I do agree with you, but for Thailand (and many other countries) 'Digital nomad' isn't a thing. You are there either as a tourist, or you are there for business. If it is for business you will need to have a registered business, freelancing doesn't qualify. I tried to fly there on a business visa but I wasn't able to get one because Thailand doesn't recognise a 'self employed' person as a business.