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"the one thing that vindicates the left in America is that its at least the arguably more humanitarian and ethical side" Not sure the left is vindicated for "e

by wolco2 6y ago

"the one thing that vindicates the left in America is that its at least the arguably more humanitarian and ethical side" Not sure the left is vindicated for "ethical" stances or actions. Pro abortion, assisted end of life, corrupt unions, free speak, gay marriage, larger government waste are things traditionally seen as things associated with the left and unethical by some. Traditionally the right was the party of values and the left was the party of freedom.

bawolff 6y ago
If everyone agrees with you its not really an ethical stance. (Although you have to go pretty far afield from mainstream western civilization to find people who actively disagree with freedom of speech in principle) > Traditionally the right was the party of values and the left was the party of freedom. I dont know about that, but the definition of right and left (and freedom) change over time and geographic location. Nonetheless both sides are routed in values, just different ones ("freedom" is a value)
esperent 6y ago
> Traditionally the right was the party of values and the left was the party of freedom. I presume you're talking about the US so I'll offer a European perspective: whatever about traditional standpoints, in recent times the "left" (democrats) are the party of values, lying somewhere right of center, while the "right" (republicans) are starting to toy with fascism but are currently merely quite far to the right in the region of oligarchy. You guys are in sore need of an actual left leaning political party to balance things out.
- thyrsus 6y ago
  The Democratic Socialists of America exist, with a platform mildly more ambitious than the Sanders/Ocasio-Cortez wing of the Democratic Party. The less fascist voting public ignores them, the more fascist voting public believes they are the second coming of Stalin.
- rayiner 6y ago
  Democrats are left of center compared to Europe, and their most progressive base is solidly left of center. This chart predates their significant shift further left after 2016: https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/hazard_germanyprimer_0821_2_revised-mobile1.png https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/hazar...
- wolco2 6y ago
  Interesting definitely location changes my comment. If the left parties are right of centre are they still left leaning parties?
  - esperent 6y ago
    No.
nl 6y ago
> the left was the party of freedom. Could you provide some kind of support for that? I've never heard anyone in the US or in any Western country claim the left was particularly focused on "freedom".
- WalterBright 6y ago
  The problem is that "freedom" has many distinctly different meanings. For example, it can be "free from want", or it can be "free from responsibility", or it can be "free to do what one wants", or ...
  - nl 6y ago
    Yes, this is a reasonable point (but doesn't appear to be what the OP is talking about).
- wolco2 6y ago
  Freedom of speech, movement, sexual preference, abortion are all core principles of the left. Free speech may be on the way and replaced with right speech but traditional free speech was a plank in the 60s-90s.
  - nl 6y ago
    > Freedom of speech, movement, sexual preference, abortion are all core principles of the left. Those things are rarely argued on "freedom" principles and instead are argued on the issue of progressive rights: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism. And no major left wing figure outside the US has ever argued strongly for unrestricted free speech. Freedom of movement doesn't seem something that is strongly one way or the other, but I'd note that the requirement to carry identification is something that was kept in left leaning countries after WW2 but abandoned in right leaning countries. Libertarianism seems - in principle - more like what you are describing. And in the US Libertarianism is generally seen as a more right-wing view (primarily because of economic issues rather than social though).
piva00 6y ago
> Traditionally the right was the party of values and the left was the party of freedom. What is "freedom" here?

by wolco2 6y ago

bawolff 6y ago

If everyone agrees with you its not really an ethical stance. (Although you have to go pretty far afield from mainstream western civilization to find people who actively disagree with freedom of speech in principle) > Traditionally the right was the party of values and the left was the party of freedom. I dont know about that, but the definition of right and left (and freedom) change over time and geographic location. Nonetheless both sides are routed in values, just different ones ("freedom" is a value)

esperent 6y ago

> Traditionally the right was the party of values and the left was the party of freedom. I presume you're talking about the US so I'll offer a European perspective: whatever about traditional standpoints, in recent times the "left" (democrats) are the party of values, lying somewhere right of center, while the "right" (republicans) are starting to toy with fascism but are currently merely quite far to the right in the region of oligarchy. You guys are in sore need of an actual left leaning political party to balance things out.

thyrsus 6y ago
The Democratic Socialists of America exist, with a platform mildly more ambitious than the Sanders/Ocasio-Cortez wing of the Democratic Party. The less fascist voting public ignores them, the more fascist voting public believes they are the second coming of Stalin.
rayiner 6y ago
Democrats are left of center compared to Europe, and their most progressive base is solidly left of center. This chart predates their significant shift further left after 2016: https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/hazard_germanyprimer_0821_2_revised-mobile1.png https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/hazar...
wolco2 6y ago
Interesting definitely location changes my comment. If the left parties are right of centre are they still left leaning parties?
- esperent 6y ago
  No.

nl 6y ago

> the left was the party of freedom. Could you provide some kind of support for that? I've never heard anyone in the US or in any Western country claim the left was particularly focused on "freedom".

WalterBright 6y ago
The problem is that "freedom" has many distinctly different meanings. For example, it can be "free from want", or it can be "free from responsibility", or it can be "free to do what one wants", or ...
- nl 6y ago
  Yes, this is a reasonable point (but doesn't appear to be what the OP is talking about).
wolco2 6y ago
Freedom of speech, movement, sexual preference, abortion are all core principles of the left. Free speech may be on the way and replaced with right speech but traditional free speech was a plank in the 60s-90s.
- nl 6y ago
  > Freedom of speech, movement, sexual preference, abortion are all core principles of the left. Those things are rarely argued on "freedom" principles and instead are argued on the issue of progressive rights: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism. And no major left wing figure outside the US has ever argued strongly for unrestricted free speech. Freedom of movement doesn't seem something that is strongly one way or the other, but I'd note that the requirement to carry identification is something that was kept in left leaning countries after WW2 but abandoned in right leaning countries. Libertarianism seems - in principle - more like what you are describing. And in the US Libertarianism is generally seen as a more right-wing view (primarily because of economic issues rather than social though).

piva00 6y ago

> Traditionally the right was the party of values and the left was the party of freedom. What is "freedom" here?