6 ms·

Have you ever lost a job because you don't have side-projects? This notion that we're being forced out of software jobs because we don't have side-projects just

by toolz 6y ago

Have you ever lost a job because you don't have side-projects? This notion that we're being forced out of software jobs because we don't have side-projects just hasn't manifested anywhere that I've seen. It very much feels like an argument that you should be able to advance in your career with 40 hours/wk as much as the person willing to spend 50. So, you have kids, great! Spend time with them, enjoy your life. Presumably you're a software engineer so you're making more money than the vast majority of the world. Enjoy that, but do you feel entitled to go as far in your career as someone who dedicates more of their life to their career? Should those people be punished by being displaced by someone like you who presumably has less expertise due to spending less time on your career? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I'm struggling to understand why our current system should change to cater to your lifestyle choices of having kids.

webmaven 6y ago
> Have you ever lost a job because you don't have side-projects? I am aware of hiring decisions between several candidates that hinged on their side projects (or lack thereof).
- justatdotin 6y ago
  so what? some workers like to spend time coding off-clock: that's fine. some employers prefer those workers: that's fine too. I'm not interested in being one of those workers, and quite happy to avoid those employers. I have no trouble finding workplaces that respect my time.
  - webmaven 6y ago
    I think you mistake my comment. Perhaps I just should have said "yes".
- caenorst 6y ago
  Then isn't it the pool of candidate that is setting the norm, and not the employer ?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    Yup. Personally, I like doing coding stuff on the side. And even though I'm not going to let any company tell me what side projects to do (I use these projects to reclaim some autonomy), I'm also not going to leave them out of my CV to be "fair" to other candidates. After all, they won't leave out their superior university or FAANG experience either. I think what we want to limit is employers pressuring people into side-projects as a form of unpaid overtime. Other than that, I'm not sure if I see the problem here - but I guess I'm a part of it too.
- occams_chainsaw 6y ago
  COBOL?
TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
> by being displaced by someone like you who presumably has less expertise Can you see how this presumption could be problematic? Edit: fixed grammar
bee_rider 6y ago
A system that doesn't "cater" to people having and raising kids has trouble coming up about 20 years down the road. If the general solution to career advancement is just to work more hours, we'll be a bunch of unhealthy, overworked burnouts.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  The general solution to getting better at anything is to put more hours into it. Where's that expectation that you have to be best of the best coming from? (Not to mention, the expectation to be seen and treated as the best of the best, without putting in the work.)
  - Twisell 6y ago
    True but the false narrative lie elsewhere. Sure you can put more hours into something to get better and improve your performance. But why should you spent more hours on your free time? Some employers grant a free "afternoon" every-week for employees side projects. Guess what more side projects, less burnout... Source: The company that support PostgreSQL for my workplace do that. Which we were doing the same.
- undreren 6y ago
  Few companies live longer than 15 years, even fewer employees and managers. In my experience, people rarely cares about consequences, they won't suffer from.
- toolz 6y ago
  If anything our world is overpopulated. It seems to me we'd be remarkably better off with fewer kids. I reject the notion that systems optimizing for raising kids would put society in a superior place. I'm not against anyone having kids, but I reject the notion that it's a benefit for society that we encourage people to bear and raise children. People will bear and raise children regardless and I think reducing incentives there would ultimately have better societal outcomes. This is reflected all over the world with developed countries having fewer kids per family. Correlation != causation, but it's certainly evidence.
meheleventyone 6y ago
There’s an interesting statement there that the extra ten hours makes a difference for career advancement. I wonder how much that’s really true.
bryanrasmussen 6y ago
>Should those people be punished by being displaced by someone like you who presumably has less expertise due to spending less time on your career In my experience, the people who have kids generally have more experience because they built up the experience before getting the kids.
madeofpalk 6y ago
> Enjoy that, but do you feel entitled to go as far in your career as someone who dedicates more of their life to their career? As a 20-something year old with no kids, I certainly do not feel any more entitled to "go far in my career" than anyone else, just because im dead inside and write code on the weekends after work. Anyone who thinks like this is an asshole who I don't want to work with.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- toolz 6y ago
  This seems like an unnecessarily hostile response. I hope you find a hobby or passion that gets you out of any funk you might be in. I hope you can understand my opinions are made with good intentions. Feel free to disagree with them and feel free to avoid working with people who hold these opinions, but I'd prefer if you avoided calling me names just because you're incapable of understanding my good intentions at the moment.

by toolz 6y ago

webmaven 6y ago

> Have you ever lost a job because you don't have side-projects? I am aware of hiring decisions between several candidates that hinged on their side projects (or lack thereof).

justatdotin 6y ago
so what? some workers like to spend time coding off-clock: that's fine. some employers prefer those workers: that's fine too. I'm not interested in being one of those workers, and quite happy to avoid those employers. I have no trouble finding workplaces that respect my time.
- webmaven 6y ago
  I think you mistake my comment. Perhaps I just should have said "yes".
caenorst 6y ago
Then isn't it the pool of candidate that is setting the norm, and not the employer ?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  Yup. Personally, I like doing coding stuff on the side. And even though I'm not going to let any company tell me what side projects to do (I use these projects to reclaim some autonomy), I'm also not going to leave them out of my CV to be "fair" to other candidates. After all, they won't leave out their superior university or FAANG experience either. I think what we want to limit is employers pressuring people into side-projects as a form of unpaid overtime. Other than that, I'm not sure if I see the problem here - but I guess I'm a part of it too.
occams_chainsaw 6y ago
COBOL?

TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago

> by being displaced by someone like you who presumably has less expertise Can you see how this presumption could be problematic? Edit: fixed grammar

bee_rider 6y ago

A system that doesn't "cater" to people having and raising kids has trouble coming up about 20 years down the road. If the general solution to career advancement is just to work more hours, we'll be a bunch of unhealthy, overworked burnouts.

TeMPOraL 6y ago
The general solution to getting better at anything is to put more hours into it. Where's that expectation that you have to be best of the best coming from? (Not to mention, the expectation to be seen and treated as the best of the best, without putting in the work.)
- Twisell 6y ago
  True but the false narrative lie elsewhere. Sure you can put more hours into something to get better and improve your performance. But why should you spent more hours on your free time? Some employers grant a free "afternoon" every-week for employees side projects. Guess what more side projects, less burnout... Source: The company that support PostgreSQL for my workplace do that. Which we were doing the same.
undreren 6y ago
Few companies live longer than 15 years, even fewer employees and managers. In my experience, people rarely cares about consequences, they won't suffer from.
toolz 6y ago
If anything our world is overpopulated. It seems to me we'd be remarkably better off with fewer kids. I reject the notion that systems optimizing for raising kids would put society in a superior place. I'm not against anyone having kids, but I reject the notion that it's a benefit for society that we encourage people to bear and raise children. People will bear and raise children regardless and I think reducing incentives there would ultimately have better societal outcomes. This is reflected all over the world with developed countries having fewer kids per family. Correlation != causation, but it's certainly evidence.

meheleventyone 6y ago

There’s an interesting statement there that the extra ten hours makes a difference for career advancement. I wonder how much that’s really true.

bryanrasmussen 6y ago

>Should those people be punished by being displaced by someone like you who presumably has less expertise due to spending less time on your career In my experience, the people who have kids generally have more experience because they built up the experience before getting the kids.

madeofpalk 6y ago

> Enjoy that, but do you feel entitled to go as far in your career as someone who dedicates more of their life to their career? As a 20-something year old with no kids, I certainly do not feel any more entitled to "go far in my career" than anyone else, just because im dead inside and write code on the weekends after work. Anyone who thinks like this is an asshole who I don't want to work with.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
toolz 6y ago
This seems like an unnecessarily hostile response. I hope you find a hobby or passion that gets you out of any funk you might be in. I hope you can understand my opinions are made with good intentions. Feel free to disagree with them and feel free to avoid working with people who hold these opinions, but I'd prefer if you avoided calling me names just because you're incapable of understanding my good intentions at the moment.