13 ms·

Here's how I look at it, if you're a musician, you probably play at home sometime. If you're a mathematician, you probably solve some maths at home. If you're

Here's how I look at it, if you're a musician, you probably play at home sometime. If you're a mathematician, you probably solve some maths at home. If you're a writer, you probably write at home. Most people that can practice their craft do so at home. I don't expect a hunter or a fisherman to hunt or fish at home. But a chef? A chef might have an idea for a meal and experiment at home. So a software developer that doesn't practice their craft at home is very suspect. I don't expect a side project, just practice, but very often, we have an idea that does turn into a side project. I don't expect this side project to make money, to have a website, to have a beautiful code, to be in github, but if you can't tell me anything that you have worked on just for the hell of it in the past year, I will be very and highly suspicious of how good you are.

ignoramous 6y ago
A lot of really really good engineers I knew at AWS had no side projects. They were absolute masters at their job. May be AWS is a small sample size, and sure engineers with side-projects were better than average, but to say others were not as good...nope, doesn't go with my observation at all.
- sumanthvepa 6y ago
  This is partly due to the nature of your employment contract at AMZN. They can lay claim to all the IP you create while employed. You will need to get explicit permission to work on an open source project. This is fairly common at large companies.
ipiz0618 6y ago
This is true. To think of it, some lawyers probably work for free in the weekends for the poor; some doctors probably read about medical breakthroughs (and inevitable solve family cases) at home, and teachers too. I don't see anything wrong with either approach to coding, be it treating it strictly as work or as a hobby. But if someone expects good code, best practices, 100% test coverage, etc. in a side project - that's going too far.
- ipsum2 6y ago
  > But if someone expects good code, best practices, 100% test coverage, etc. in a side project - that's going too far. If you expect some lawyers to work professionally pro bono, why is it going too far to write tests for your side project?
  - eggsmediumrare 6y ago
    Pro bono work has a purpose beyond the work itself. Side projects don't necessarily have any purpose aside from professional development.
    - barumi 6y ago
      It seems you're assuming that FLOSS software lives in a bubble where only the developers use it or extract any meaningful value from it.
TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
38 hours a week at work practicing your profession isn't good enough for you. I'm a welder by trade. Occasionally I do a spot of welding at home, but the 38 to 60 hours a week I've spent twenty years doing has made me a vastly better metal fabricator than the few side projects I've done. But I can rant endlessly to you about my other interests, some of which tie in nicely to a wider-perspective-of-life than just metal fabrication, and it's those other interests that have proven to set me apart from the pack and advanced my career way more. Could you just ask a person what fun or interesting or challenging things they've worked on, whether in their paid line of work or as a side-project, and leave aside your value judgements about what they do outside of work. Core point: stop thinking your experience generalises to the whole population.
- Zenbit_UX 6y ago
  Welding isn't a really good comparison. I'm not sure there's much new coming out the world of welding, and you probably hit peak skill 3-5 years into your career. Neither of those assumptions hold for programmers. The field is constantly changing, the 'best practices' are evolving and you (should) never really hit the day where you're never going to get better anymore.
  - dkural 6y ago
    Welding actually has many specialized tools and processes, alloys also evolve. Tools have different trade-offs, and a large number of geometric and performance considerations - from environmental concerns (how much oil will spill?) to environment concerns (how do you weld under a blizzard on top of a pole?) there is a lot to learn and keep up with; and can easily, easily take a decade+ master. Your basic hobbyist weld is like hello-world. As a side note, one sign of a bad engineer is one who underestimates difficulties in fields outside their expertise.
  - na85 6y ago
    >The field is constantly changing, the 'best practices' are evolving A lot of that is self-inflicted, though. How many javascript frameworks, all solving essentially the same problem, are there? It's just change for change's sake.
acheron 6y ago
Let me guess, you're single and 24 years old. You know what I do at home "just for the hell of it"? I play with my kids.
- toolz 6y ago
  Have you ever lost a job because you don't have side-projects? This notion that we're being forced out of software jobs because we don't have side-projects just hasn't manifested anywhere that I've seen. It very much feels like an argument that you should be able to advance in your career with 40 hours/wk as much as the person willing to spend 50. So, you have kids, great! Spend time with them, enjoy your life. Presumably you're a software engineer so you're making more money than the vast majority of the world. Enjoy that, but do you feel entitled to go as far in your career as someone who dedicates more of their life to their career? Should those people be punished by being displaced by someone like you who presumably has less expertise due to spending less time on your career? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I'm struggling to understand why our current system should change to cater to your lifestyle choices of having kids.
  - webmaven 6y ago
    > Have you ever lost a job because you don't have side-projects? I am aware of hiring decisions between several candidates that hinged on their side projects (or lack thereof).
    - justatdotin 6y ago
      so what? some workers like to spend time coding off-clock: that's fine. some employers prefer those workers: that's fine too. I'm not interested in being one of those workers, and quite happy to avoid those employers. I have no trouble finding workplaces that respect my time.
      - webmaven 6y ago
        I think you mistake my comment. Perhaps I just should have said "yes".
vbordo 6y ago
A key difference overlooked in this perspective is that the professions you've listed don't actively probe about a candidates work outside of the hiring/talent discovery context. Their skill is judged by what they've produced that's directly relevant to the evaluation process. Comparing programmers to such a diverse array of disciplines requires a more detailed analysis. A percentage of the software industry has a bias against programmers who don't code in their spare time because it's extremely difficult to evaluate technical talent. We lean on quality filters like number of hours spent on side projects that have sparse evidence to support their efficacy. While I'm skeptical that a general set of metrics exist we can use to perfectly evaluate technical skill across the industry, we can certainly do better.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  > because it's extremely difficult to evaluate technical talent. Is it actually harder to evaluate a programmer's talent compared to, say, a lawyer or a doctor's talent?
  - atom_arranger 6y ago
    I think maybe it’s because lawyers and doctors take on cases/patients by themselves sometimes. If they win cases or help patients that speaks to their ability. These days many software developers have never delivered software by themselves, so when they say they were “part of a team that developed X” we can’t know if they really did a significant part of X, or if they were just along for the ride.
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      I'd imagine just as many lawyers work as parts of larger legal times. And a doctor's performance is even more murky in many ways—did the patient get better because of the doctor, or because they were going to get better anyway? You can't just look at a doctor's record and determine their performance.
  - geodel 6y ago
    I also think it should not be. But so many times companies hiring brought it upon themselves by thinking too highly of their work. I have had first hand experience when just to develop or support some half-assed shitty webapp, hiring guy would talk of it as developing platform challenging Amazon in E-commerce. In these scenarios they are going to get lot of candidates who will do far more fuzzing on their CVs
geodel 6y ago
I agree. Further since Software / IT industry is huge I would identify at least 2 categories for workers there. One mainly enterprisey CRUD peddlers, or just setting up and customizing large packaged software etc. They often work at large consultancies. For them this is just job that pays good. These folks don't even understand there is something called side/personal projects. Second category who work on large custom build applications, likely enjoy good software craftsmanship. They got chance to be part of challenging projects. They think of getting even better jobs or just plan to write some personal projects which may even be useful at work. Now when it comes to hiring I do not know if hiring folks / HR really identify these 2 categories. To me it seems every application is evaluated as software developer without analyzing context on what kind of work is done at what kind of companies.
II2II 6y ago
> Most people that can practice their craft do so at home. Just because some do doesn't mean most do, at least in any significant manner. Just because some don't doesn't mean that they are letting their life outside of work go idle. People are allowed to have other interests (e.g. hobbies) and other responsibilities (e.g family). That doesn't mean that they are suspect or not good. It may mean other things, like they are a better rounded individual.
- ck425 6y ago
  This, 100% this. I have a ton of other interests outside of software. I already get 40 hours a week working on software so why would I ignore all other interests and spend that time building software too? I'd much rather spend that time pursuing my other interests. I hate this attitude that there's something wrong with that. It's perfectly possible to be a good engineer doing only 40 hrs a week. Frankly this whole attitude is a big part of why we have a diversity problem, because only a small minority (over represented here on HN) want to spend all their time building software and this attitude puts a lot of people who weren't teenage coding geeks off joining the industry. It's actively harming the industry and I wish it would go away. If you individually enjoy coding for fun above anything else by all means go for it and enjoy your life, but stop trying to force that on the rest of us. There's more to life that just building software!
- barumi 6y ago
  > It may mean other things, like they are a better rounded individual. That's great, someone is a better rounded individual. That's nice. But if that well-rounded individual applies for a React position but has zero React experience, let alone any React project in their portfolio or CV, then that well rounded individual will be quickly brushed aside on the first round of the application process. But at least he's well-rounded.
  - thirdsun 6y ago
    You're comparing extremes. The well-rounded person without side-project might just be as capable and experienced as the candidates he's competing with. If that's the case I'd always rate well-roundedness and interests outside of the immediate scope of the job more valuable than a long list of side projects.
ranit 6y ago
Off topic: Are there more professional hunters than hunters than hunt for hobby? Curious how did you pick hunters profession to compare to software engineering.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
nitrogen 6y ago
But a chef? The only (sous) chef I know hates cooking outside of work.
- pwagland 6y ago
  This is absolutely common. For various reasons, I know a bunch of chef's. Some don't mind cooking outside of work, but quite a few see cooking as work, and don't want to work outside of work…
AA-BA-94-2A-56 6y ago
This is an absurd expectation, and not healthy at all for individuals or the industry.
- nojvek 6y ago
  I think the absurd expectation is the “at home” bit. Why can’t you experiment at work? Practice your craft at ...work? I do a lot of reading at home. Some tech, some non tech. However not a lot of side project work at home. Baby, wife and dog come first when I’m home.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    I'd say you can and you should. Unless you're working in a Jira sweatshop, you have some slack in between tasks. To the extent you're hired as a professional and being expected to perform creative work, learning is part of the job description and it's fair to do some on employer time. Good companies recognize this explicitly, though I'm yet to be in one that would frown on people who don't just stick to solving tickets as fast as they possibly can.
watwut 6y ago
> if you're a musician, you probably play at home sometime. If you're a mathematician, you probably solve some maths at home. Musician does not spend 8 hours a day playing music at work and then plays at home in addition to it. Playing music at home is not addition to full time work. Same with mathematician, actually. I know, because I have them in my family. They do math for work, whether at work or at home. And they do have non-math hobbies. Writer is not writing 8-5 in work just to come home for hobby writing. Writer either writes for job or has non-writing job. > A chef might have an idea for a meal and experiment at home. 100% not. Chefs work long hours and when they come home, they want partner to cook.
ashtonkem 6y ago
Of course, there’s actually evidence that focusing on your craft too much makes you myopic and less creative. There is some indication that academics who have artistic pursuits actually produce more papers than their peers, for example. Beyond that, you are not a machine. Stop arranging your life so that you’ll be the best programmer possible and go do things that are just fun and not connected with your career. It’s good for you, trust me. 40 hours a week is enough for work, go enjoy living.
- gmac 6y ago
  The truth is surely somewhere in between. Of course it's not healthy to log off your coding job and just keep coding for yourself, day in, day out. A full life involves so much more. But on the other hand, I do kind of agree with the parent that a coder who shows no evidence of ever having experimented with a new technology or scratched their own itch with code seems like someone with neither love for nor curiosity about their craft.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    I agree that a certain amount of practice is needed to get and remain sharp (but actually suspect that 40hrs is too much), but I disagree strongly that a “love” for their craft is a necessity. There are tons of incredibly competent engineers who do it as a job to make a living without it being their main passion. I don’t expect my plumber to be in love with plumbing, I just expect them to be competent. Claiming that loving programming is anywhere near a necessity to learn new things is to completely ignore how people in any other profession learn new things.
MaxBarraclough 6y ago
Surgeons and nuclear engineers are able to be highly competent without work-related home projects.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
fxtentacle 6y ago
A lot of companies want you to sign those horrible contracts where everything that you do in your free time automatically becomes company property. In that case, I'd say "No I categorically do not do side projects because I do not want FAANG X to own them" is a perfectly reasonable answer. If you somehow manage to avoid signing that clause, then suddenly your side projects become potential competition for your employer, so they might get you into awkward discussions with your manager, especially so if your side project turns out useful or valuable. So having your own side project might require a level of people skills that programmers highly dedicated to their craft will likely not have. I know people who dread "their" side projects because it just feels like additional unpaid work to them. I also know people who keep their side projects a secret from their employer. If you select for people with corporate side projects, you're likely selecting for future employees with bad people skills.
ehnto 6y ago
> So a software developer that doesn't practice their craft at home is very suspect. I am ecstatic that I get to pour my craft into paid work. I have written my best code in the context of employment. Over the years, of course I have had side projects. But in the last two years I have worked on nothing but paid projects that have all let me grow and explore as a developer. Musicians are not a great analogue because they aren't getting paid to music for 8+ hours a day already. Of course they have to practice at home. But I get plenty of practice coding while I am getting paid, I don't always need a side project.
- barumi 6y ago
  > But I get plenty of practice coding while I am getting paid, I don't always need a side project. The point of side-projects is that some of us don't get any practice at all coding relevant stuff while working on their 9-to-5 job. Those who are mindful about their career do understand the risks of getting stuck doing irrelevant tasks, thus they feel compelled to work on their skillset and put together a nice portfolio during the process so that we have something to show to prospective employers.
  - ehnto 6y ago
    Right, I understand the value they provide. But the assumption that anyone without side projects is no good as a developer is a bad one. Software is a hugely diverse industry.
    - barumi 6y ago
      > But the assumption that anyone without side projects is no good That's not the assertion at all. The general assertion is that those without side projects either might not have a way to showcase their skills or might not have a way to work on skills they don't use as part of their 9-to-5 job. The specific assertion regarding recruiters is that without any side-project that showcases your skills with specific technologies then recruiters have no objective way to evaluate your skills. Thus if they have other candidates that demonstrate their skills and they have to pick between them and you, you will be left out because you have nothing to show for.
pelliphant 6y ago
Why? I started working fulltime as a coder maybe 3 years ago. Before that I coded a lot on my free time, but since I started doing it fulltime at work, I did less on my spare time, and now it's basically no coding at all on my spare time. I can understand that an employer wants someone who practices their work-related skills on their free time, but is it really that important? If you want productive employees, isn't it even more important that they eat healthy, exercise and sleep well? Just counting amount of hours/week spent on coding sounds like quantity over quality to me...
FridgeSeal 6y ago
I’m not sure if you know many cooks/chefs but all the ones I know, literally the last thing they want to do after getting home is not spending time cooking.
loco5niner 6y ago
From what I hear, most chefs don't do 'real' cooking at home cause they are tired of cooking all time.

ignoramous 6y ago

A lot of really really good engineers I knew at AWS had no side projects. They were absolute masters at their job. May be AWS is a small sample size, and sure engineers with side-projects were better than average, but to say others were not as good...nope, doesn't go with my observation at all.

sumanthvepa 6y ago
This is partly due to the nature of your employment contract at AMZN. They can lay claim to all the IP you create while employed. You will need to get explicit permission to work on an open source project. This is fairly common at large companies.

ipiz0618 6y ago

This is true. To think of it, some lawyers probably work for free in the weekends for the poor; some doctors probably read about medical breakthroughs (and inevitable solve family cases) at home, and teachers too. I don't see anything wrong with either approach to coding, be it treating it strictly as work or as a hobby. But if someone expects good code, best practices, 100% test coverage, etc. in a side project - that's going too far.

ipsum2 6y ago
> But if someone expects good code, best practices, 100% test coverage, etc. in a side project - that's going too far. If you expect some lawyers to work professionally pro bono, why is it going too far to write tests for your side project?
- eggsmediumrare 6y ago
  Pro bono work has a purpose beyond the work itself. Side projects don't necessarily have any purpose aside from professional development.
  - barumi 6y ago
    It seems you're assuming that FLOSS software lives in a bubble where only the developers use it or extract any meaningful value from it.

TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago

38 hours a week at work practicing your profession isn't good enough for you. I'm a welder by trade. Occasionally I do a spot of welding at home, but the 38 to 60 hours a week I've spent twenty years doing has made me a vastly better metal fabricator than the few side projects I've done. But I can rant endlessly to you about my other interests, some of which tie in nicely to a wider-perspective-of-life than just metal fabrication, and it's those other interests that have proven to set me apart from the pack and advanced my career way more. Could you just ask a person what fun or interesting or challenging things they've worked on, whether in their paid line of work or as a side-project, and leave aside your value judgements about what they do outside of work. Core point: stop thinking your experience generalises to the whole population.

Zenbit_UX 6y ago
Welding isn't a really good comparison. I'm not sure there's much new coming out the world of welding, and you probably hit peak skill 3-5 years into your career. Neither of those assumptions hold for programmers. The field is constantly changing, the 'best practices' are evolving and you (should) never really hit the day where you're never going to get better anymore.
- dkural 6y ago
  Welding actually has many specialized tools and processes, alloys also evolve. Tools have different trade-offs, and a large number of geometric and performance considerations - from environmental concerns (how much oil will spill?) to environment concerns (how do you weld under a blizzard on top of a pole?) there is a lot to learn and keep up with; and can easily, easily take a decade+ master. Your basic hobbyist weld is like hello-world. As a side note, one sign of a bad engineer is one who underestimates difficulties in fields outside their expertise.
- na85 6y ago
  >The field is constantly changing, the 'best practices' are evolving A lot of that is self-inflicted, though. How many javascript frameworks, all solving essentially the same problem, are there? It's just change for change's sake.

acheron 6y ago

Let me guess, you're single and 24 years old. You know what I do at home "just for the hell of it"? I play with my kids.

toolz 6y ago
Have you ever lost a job because you don't have side-projects? This notion that we're being forced out of software jobs because we don't have side-projects just hasn't manifested anywhere that I've seen. It very much feels like an argument that you should be able to advance in your career with 40 hours/wk as much as the person willing to spend 50. So, you have kids, great! Spend time with them, enjoy your life. Presumably you're a software engineer so you're making more money than the vast majority of the world. Enjoy that, but do you feel entitled to go as far in your career as someone who dedicates more of their life to their career? Should those people be punished by being displaced by someone like you who presumably has less expertise due to spending less time on your career? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I'm struggling to understand why our current system should change to cater to your lifestyle choices of having kids.
- webmaven 6y ago
  > Have you ever lost a job because you don't have side-projects? I am aware of hiring decisions between several candidates that hinged on their side projects (or lack thereof).
  - justatdotin 6y ago
    so what? some workers like to spend time coding off-clock: that's fine. some employers prefer those workers: that's fine too. I'm not interested in being one of those workers, and quite happy to avoid those employers. I have no trouble finding workplaces that respect my time.
    - webmaven 6y ago
      I think you mistake my comment. Perhaps I just should have said "yes".

vbordo 6y ago

A key difference overlooked in this perspective is that the professions you've listed don't actively probe about a candidates work outside of the hiring/talent discovery context. Their skill is judged by what they've produced that's directly relevant to the evaluation process. Comparing programmers to such a diverse array of disciplines requires a more detailed analysis. A percentage of the software industry has a bias against programmers who don't code in their spare time because it's extremely difficult to evaluate technical talent. We lean on quality filters like number of hours spent on side projects that have sparse evidence to support their efficacy. While I'm skeptical that a general set of metrics exist we can use to perfectly evaluate technical skill across the industry, we can certainly do better.

Wowfunhappy 6y ago
> because it's extremely difficult to evaluate technical talent. Is it actually harder to evaluate a programmer's talent compared to, say, a lawyer or a doctor's talent?
- atom_arranger 6y ago
  I think maybe it’s because lawyers and doctors take on cases/patients by themselves sometimes. If they win cases or help patients that speaks to their ability. These days many software developers have never delivered software by themselves, so when they say they were “part of a team that developed X” we can’t know if they really did a significant part of X, or if they were just along for the ride.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    I'd imagine just as many lawyers work as parts of larger legal times. And a doctor's performance is even more murky in many ways—did the patient get better because of the doctor, or because they were going to get better anyway? You can't just look at a doctor's record and determine their performance.
- geodel 6y ago
  I also think it should not be. But so many times companies hiring brought it upon themselves by thinking too highly of their work. I have had first hand experience when just to develop or support some half-assed shitty webapp, hiring guy would talk of it as developing platform challenging Amazon in E-commerce. In these scenarios they are going to get lot of candidates who will do far more fuzzing on their CVs

geodel 6y ago

I agree. Further since Software / IT industry is huge I would identify at least 2 categories for workers there. One mainly enterprisey CRUD peddlers, or just setting up and customizing large packaged software etc. They often work at large consultancies. For them this is just job that pays good. These folks don't even understand there is something called side/personal projects. Second category who work on large custom build applications, likely enjoy good software craftsmanship. They got chance to be part of challenging projects. They think of getting even better jobs or just plan to write some personal projects which may even be useful at work. Now when it comes to hiring I do not know if hiring folks / HR really identify these 2 categories. To me it seems every application is evaluated as software developer without analyzing context on what kind of work is done at what kind of companies.

II2II 6y ago

> Most people that can practice their craft do so at home. Just because some do doesn't mean most do, at least in any significant manner. Just because some don't doesn't mean that they are letting their life outside of work go idle. People are allowed to have other interests (e.g. hobbies) and other responsibilities (e.g family). That doesn't mean that they are suspect or not good. It may mean other things, like they are a better rounded individual.

ck425 6y ago
This, 100% this. I have a ton of other interests outside of software. I already get 40 hours a week working on software so why would I ignore all other interests and spend that time building software too? I'd much rather spend that time pursuing my other interests. I hate this attitude that there's something wrong with that. It's perfectly possible to be a good engineer doing only 40 hrs a week. Frankly this whole attitude is a big part of why we have a diversity problem, because only a small minority (over represented here on HN) want to spend all their time building software and this attitude puts a lot of people who weren't teenage coding geeks off joining the industry. It's actively harming the industry and I wish it would go away. If you individually enjoy coding for fun above anything else by all means go for it and enjoy your life, but stop trying to force that on the rest of us. There's more to life that just building software!
barumi 6y ago
> It may mean other things, like they are a better rounded individual. That's great, someone is a better rounded individual. That's nice. But if that well-rounded individual applies for a React position but has zero React experience, let alone any React project in their portfolio or CV, then that well rounded individual will be quickly brushed aside on the first round of the application process. But at least he's well-rounded.
- thirdsun 6y ago
  You're comparing extremes. The well-rounded person without side-project might just be as capable and experienced as the candidates he's competing with. If that's the case I'd always rate well-roundedness and interests outside of the immediate scope of the job more valuable than a long list of side projects.

ranit 6y ago

Off topic: Are there more professional hunters than hunters than hunt for hobby? Curious how did you pick hunters profession to compare to software engineering.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

nitrogen 6y ago

But a chef? The only (sous) chef I know hates cooking outside of work.

pwagland 6y ago
This is absolutely common. For various reasons, I know a bunch of chef's. Some don't mind cooking outside of work, but quite a few see cooking as work, and don't want to work outside of work…

AA-BA-94-2A-56 6y ago

This is an absurd expectation, and not healthy at all for individuals or the industry.

nojvek 6y ago
I think the absurd expectation is the “at home” bit. Why can’t you experiment at work? Practice your craft at ...work? I do a lot of reading at home. Some tech, some non tech. However not a lot of side project work at home. Baby, wife and dog come first when I’m home.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  I'd say you can and you should. Unless you're working in a Jira sweatshop, you have some slack in between tasks. To the extent you're hired as a professional and being expected to perform creative work, learning is part of the job description and it's fair to do some on employer time. Good companies recognize this explicitly, though I'm yet to be in one that would frown on people who don't just stick to solving tickets as fast as they possibly can.

watwut 6y ago

> if you're a musician, you probably play at home sometime. If you're a mathematician, you probably solve some maths at home. Musician does not spend 8 hours a day playing music at work and then plays at home in addition to it. Playing music at home is not addition to full time work. Same with mathematician, actually. I know, because I have them in my family. They do math for work, whether at work or at home. And they do have non-math hobbies. Writer is not writing 8-5 in work just to come home for hobby writing. Writer either writes for job or has non-writing job. > A chef might have an idea for a meal and experiment at home. 100% not. Chefs work long hours and when they come home, they want partner to cook.

ashtonkem 6y ago

Of course, there’s actually evidence that focusing on your craft too much makes you myopic and less creative. There is some indication that academics who have artistic pursuits actually produce more papers than their peers, for example. Beyond that, you are not a machine. Stop arranging your life so that you’ll be the best programmer possible and go do things that are just fun and not connected with your career. It’s good for you, trust me. 40 hours a week is enough for work, go enjoy living.

gmac 6y ago
The truth is surely somewhere in between. Of course it's not healthy to log off your coding job and just keep coding for yourself, day in, day out. A full life involves so much more. But on the other hand, I do kind of agree with the parent that a coder who shows no evidence of ever having experimented with a new technology or scratched their own itch with code seems like someone with neither love for nor curiosity about their craft.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  I agree that a certain amount of practice is needed to get and remain sharp (but actually suspect that 40hrs is too much), but I disagree strongly that a “love” for their craft is a necessity. There are tons of incredibly competent engineers who do it as a job to make a living without it being their main passion. I don’t expect my plumber to be in love with plumbing, I just expect them to be competent. Claiming that loving programming is anywhere near a necessity to learn new things is to completely ignore how people in any other profession learn new things.

MaxBarraclough 6y ago

Surgeons and nuclear engineers are able to be highly competent without work-related home projects.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

fxtentacle 6y ago

A lot of companies want you to sign those horrible contracts where everything that you do in your free time automatically becomes company property. In that case, I'd say "No I categorically do not do side projects because I do not want FAANG X to own them" is a perfectly reasonable answer. If you somehow manage to avoid signing that clause, then suddenly your side projects become potential competition for your employer, so they might get you into awkward discussions with your manager, especially so if your side project turns out useful or valuable. So having your own side project might require a level of people skills that programmers highly dedicated to their craft will likely not have. I know people who dread "their" side projects because it just feels like additional unpaid work to them. I also know people who keep their side projects a secret from their employer. If you select for people with corporate side projects, you're likely selecting for future employees with bad people skills.

ehnto 6y ago

> So a software developer that doesn't practice their craft at home is very suspect. I am ecstatic that I get to pour my craft into paid work. I have written my best code in the context of employment. Over the years, of course I have had side projects. But in the last two years I have worked on nothing but paid projects that have all let me grow and explore as a developer. Musicians are not a great analogue because they aren't getting paid to music for 8+ hours a day already. Of course they have to practice at home. But I get plenty of practice coding while I am getting paid, I don't always need a side project.

barumi 6y ago
> But I get plenty of practice coding while I am getting paid, I don't always need a side project. The point of side-projects is that some of us don't get any practice at all coding relevant stuff while working on their 9-to-5 job. Those who are mindful about their career do understand the risks of getting stuck doing irrelevant tasks, thus they feel compelled to work on their skillset and put together a nice portfolio during the process so that we have something to show to prospective employers.
- ehnto 6y ago
  Right, I understand the value they provide. But the assumption that anyone without side projects is no good as a developer is a bad one. Software is a hugely diverse industry.
  - barumi 6y ago
    > But the assumption that anyone without side projects is no good That's not the assertion at all. The general assertion is that those without side projects either might not have a way to showcase their skills or might not have a way to work on skills they don't use as part of their 9-to-5 job. The specific assertion regarding recruiters is that without any side-project that showcases your skills with specific technologies then recruiters have no objective way to evaluate your skills. Thus if they have other candidates that demonstrate their skills and they have to pick between them and you, you will be left out because you have nothing to show for.

pelliphant 6y ago

Why? I started working fulltime as a coder maybe 3 years ago. Before that I coded a lot on my free time, but since I started doing it fulltime at work, I did less on my spare time, and now it's basically no coding at all on my spare time. I can understand that an employer wants someone who practices their work-related skills on their free time, but is it really that important? If you want productive employees, isn't it even more important that they eat healthy, exercise and sleep well? Just counting amount of hours/week spent on coding sounds like quantity over quality to me...

FridgeSeal 6y ago

I’m not sure if you know many cooks/chefs but all the ones I know, literally the last thing they want to do after getting home is not spending time cooking.

loco5niner 6y ago

From what I hear, most chefs don't do 'real' cooking at home cause they are tired of cooking all time.