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Wouldn't McCarthyism 2.0 be, for example, the ongoing efforts to stigmatize Communism and Socialism in the States? The administration recently banned visas for

Wouldn't McCarthyism 2.0 be, for example, the ongoing efforts to stigmatize Communism and Socialism in the States? The administration recently banned visas for anyone affiliated with a Communist Party. Socialism, meanwhile, is very much a dirty word in American politics. Biden and Warren, for instance, went to great lengths to distance themselves from 'Socialism'. Yes, labeling a business as racist could be misused and is potentially very problematic, but it hardly rises to the level of McCarthyism.

throwawaysea 6y ago
Modern cancel culture is McCarthyism, but widespread and at scale. There are numerous parallels - accusations without evidence, damaging impact without due process, changing definitions/goal posts, hyperbolic accusations, political repression, and the destruction of many careers. Labeling people with pejoratives is exactly the weapon used to silence opponents. Most typically I’ve seen it used against those that don’t align with progressive viewpoints, although that’s not always the case. We’ve already seen the damage that cancel culture can do, and so Yelp giving random people a way to damage an individual or business without a principled process (like that of the courts) seems like a really messy and bad idea that’ll make cancel culture worse. As for your notes on Communism - to me banning visas of those associated with such policies/parties seems reasonable. Marxism/collectivism is responsible for tens of millions of deaths in the 20th century and we have numerous data points showing that these ideas not only don’t work, but that their implementation requires brutal governance that is in conflict with our most basic principles, like free speech. So yes I do not welcome anyone affiliated with such parties into my country just as I would not welcome terrorists.
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  Ah, I see. Those are pretty radical stances. You just compared Marxists to terrorists, which is pretty far out there. Are folks like David Harvey, Cornell West, Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, etc., unwelcome in your hypothetical country? Sounds like you are equally interested in "cancelling" ideologies, you just have a different set you'd disallow.
  - throwawaysea 6y ago
    > You just compared Marxists to terrorists, which is pretty far out there. There is ample evidence for this comparison: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes#Estimates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_... Numerous socialist and communist states require absolute adherence because they hold their ideology in absolute terms. A lot of them are one party states for that reason. I still don't mind people discussing these ideas or supporting them from a free speech perspective, as long as they're not calling for oppression of other views/people/groups, or inciting violence, or engaging in other criminal acts. But do we need to give them paths to immigrate here? No - we provide those paths when there is benefit to our nation. Why would we provide such a path to those who support an ideology that so consistently results in bad outcomes (both economically and mortally)? > Sounds like you are equally interested in "cancelling" ideologies, you just have a different set you'd disallow. Not granting visas to members of communist parties is not the same as "cancelling" them, since they aren't being publicly shamed, or having their job taken away from them, or having their status quo disrupted in any way. But they're unlikely to add value to our society because their ideology fundamentally conflicts with our basic values. As the USCIS stated in their policy guidance: > Membership in or affiliation with the Communist Party or any other totalitarian party is inconsistent and incompatible with the Naturalization Oath of Allegiance to the United States of America, which includes pledging to “support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States.”
    - Pfhreak 6y ago
      You've clearly selected your data to match your existing understanding of the world. You've selected one carefully curated statistic and used it to justify a sweeping generalization you already held about "Marxists". You also are "lying by omission". Yes, autocratic governments that call themselves communist have killed a great many people in famines and political killings. But so have many democratic governments and non communist autocratic governments. (To say nothing of the hundreds of millions of deaths at the hands of Capitalism.) Look, we can disagree politically. But please at least do so honestly and in good faith.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago

throwawaysea 6y ago

Modern cancel culture is McCarthyism, but widespread and at scale. There are numerous parallels - accusations without evidence, damaging impact without due process, changing definitions/goal posts, hyperbolic accusations, political repression, and the destruction of many careers. Labeling people with pejoratives is exactly the weapon used to silence opponents. Most typically I’ve seen it used against those that don’t align with progressive viewpoints, although that’s not always the case. We’ve already seen the damage that cancel culture can do, and so Yelp giving random people a way to damage an individual or business without a principled process (like that of the courts) seems like a really messy and bad idea that’ll make cancel culture worse. As for your notes on Communism - to me banning visas of those associated with such policies/parties seems reasonable. Marxism/collectivism is responsible for tens of millions of deaths in the 20th century and we have numerous data points showing that these ideas not only don’t work, but that their implementation requires brutal governance that is in conflict with our most basic principles, like free speech. So yes I do not welcome anyone affiliated with such parties into my country just as I would not welcome terrorists.

Pfhreak 6y ago
Ah, I see. Those are pretty radical stances. You just compared Marxists to terrorists, which is pretty far out there. Are folks like David Harvey, Cornell West, Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, etc., unwelcome in your hypothetical country? Sounds like you are equally interested in "cancelling" ideologies, you just have a different set you'd disallow.
- throwawaysea 6y ago
  > You just compared Marxists to terrorists, which is pretty far out there. There is ample evidence for this comparison: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes#Estimates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_... Numerous socialist and communist states require absolute adherence because they hold their ideology in absolute terms. A lot of them are one party states for that reason. I still don't mind people discussing these ideas or supporting them from a free speech perspective, as long as they're not calling for oppression of other views/people/groups, or inciting violence, or engaging in other criminal acts. But do we need to give them paths to immigrate here? No - we provide those paths when there is benefit to our nation. Why would we provide such a path to those who support an ideology that so consistently results in bad outcomes (both economically and mortally)? > Sounds like you are equally interested in "cancelling" ideologies, you just have a different set you'd disallow. Not granting visas to members of communist parties is not the same as "cancelling" them, since they aren't being publicly shamed, or having their job taken away from them, or having their status quo disrupted in any way. But they're unlikely to add value to our society because their ideology fundamentally conflicts with our basic values. As the USCIS stated in their policy guidance: > Membership in or affiliation with the Communist Party or any other totalitarian party is inconsistent and incompatible with the Naturalization Oath of Allegiance to the United States of America, which includes pledging to “support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States.”
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    You've clearly selected your data to match your existing understanding of the world. You've selected one carefully curated statistic and used it to justify a sweeping generalization you already held about "Marxists". You also are "lying by omission". Yes, autocratic governments that call themselves communist have killed a great many people in famines and political killings. But so have many democratic governments and non communist autocratic governments. (To say nothing of the hundreds of millions of deaths at the hands of Capitalism.) Look, we can disagree politically. But please at least do so honestly and in good faith.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago