7 ms·

I've got unlimited mobile data for a great price in spain as well. Honestly, I hope the us catches up at some point because software still doesn't even consider

by kace91 6y ago

I've got unlimited mobile data for a great price in spain as well. Honestly, I hope the us catches up at some point because software still doesn't even consider it an option - I have to actively fight all my settings so I can get updates, backups, streaming at high quality and the like because the OS considers they should always be done on wifi. Sometimes, the situation has been so absurd that I've had to use the share Network function with a friend's phone to fool my phone into believing I'm on wifi so I could download an update.

Waterluvian 6y ago
I’m not throwing shade but I’m genuinely curious what the infrastructure cost per user is when comparing Europe and US and Canada. Surely it might be part of the problem.
- MrMorden 6y ago
  The US does have higher labor costs than most of Europe, but lax regulation of special access service (backhaul) is probably more of a factor.
  - kristopolous 6y ago
    huh? What's your source?
- rsynnott 6y ago
  Probably more down to limited competition in the US, honestly. Comparing costs across Western Europe, it’s hard to make the case that it’s an infrastructure cost problem; Germany (dense) is more expensive than Ireland (non-dense) which is more expensive than the UK (dense) which is more expensive than Finland (very non-dense).
  - Waterluvian 6y ago
    Thanks. Yeah that does sound plausible. Canada suffers from anticompetition too.
  - ksec 6y ago
    Well there are multiple factor involve, so population density isn't always of the main concern. The main cost of infrastructure is actually the rent, of any land / property cost required for the Cell. In Countries where Mobile Network already owns the land for these Cell Site / Tower that were paid and amortised during the 2G / 3G / 4G era. They are now essentially free. In Cities, that depends on rent and property pricing, unless you have government mandate or directly involved like in China. It is also dependent on the fear level of radiation in the culture / nation. People will protest to get rid of Cell Site in their own area ( While at the same time demand their Mobile Phone to have perfect reception ). Which also drives up the cost of finding and setting up Cell Sites. ( Or they are willing to put up with the risk of radiation if you pay them more ).
  - Arnt 6y ago
    Do you consider the cost of frequency bands a part of infrastructure costs, or is that separate? https://www.dw.com/en/fnord/a-49168657 https://www.dw.com/en/fnord/a-49168657 was the top hit just now when I searched for 5G auctions. I've no idea how much telcos pay in other countries, but the top six hits for my search were all about Germany, which at least doesn't suggest that Finland is raking in record sums from its auctions.
    - rsynnott 6y ago
      It's probably not a big factor. If we look at last time round, Ireland, a country of 5 million people, got 450 million in the LTE spectrum auction. Germany, a country of 83 million people, got 5.1 billion. So per capita the Irish spectrum was almost twice as expensive as the German spectrum, and yet mobile data is generally cheaper in Ireland (despite lower density, generally higher labour costs, and other factors that would lead you to expect it would be more expensive in Ireland if cost of data was actually determined by input costs). When it comes to it, 6.5bn _sounds_ like a lot, but it's only 78 euro per capita, and that's buying the telcos permanent assets which will be useful for decades to come.
- ineedasername 6y ago
  Maybe it used to be? I don't know, but not anymore. Mint Mobile will get you unlimited talk/text and 3GB data for $15/month, no extra fees. They're an MVNO using T-Mobile's network. If T-Mobile can make money wholesaling their network to Mint, and Mint can make money selling plans at that price, there's no reason for a "normal" plan to run $70 before taxes and fees. Even Mint's unlimited plan is only $30, less than half of what TMobile has.
  - closeparen 6y ago
    Typically the catch with MVNOs (and prepaid products under the main brand) is that they don't roam; you get only one operator's towers. In urban areas this is not a big deal but if you like road trips it can matter.
imedadel 6y ago
How much does it cost you and what's the average speed?
- kace91 6y ago
  I just made one of those online speed tests and it came up at ~45mb/s. Not sure if that's representative, but the important answer is that it's good enough that I never feel it's a bottleneck. As for price, I've got 3 mobile lines with infinite data plus my home wifi at 600mbps and the whole thing costs 100€/month.
marcan_42 6y ago
Phones are smart enough to know that shared networks are mobile behind the scenes and treat them as metered data too. You have to go into the wifi settings to disable that feature and force it as unmetered (how that works and whether you can even do it depends on the phone vendor...)
- kovek 6y ago
  It is possible to detect but it’s not necessarily detected by most OS features or most apps.
- jjnoakes 6y ago
  I'm curious, how does a phone know the WiFi is metered?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - bowmessage 6y ago
    I believe this is what the comment is referencing: https://android.stackexchange.com/a/220981 https://android.stackexchange.com/a/220981
    - Namidairo 6y ago
      There's also the Microsoft probe/beacon extension that exists. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/mobilebroadband/network-cost-information-element https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/mo... I don't know what iOS is doing, as they still didn't have proper data metering and limiting the last time I checked.
CrackpotGonzo 6y ago
Which service do you use?
TuringNYC 6y ago
Just a decade ago, SMS messages in the US cost 10 to 25 cents per SMS. You also got charged for spam SMS. Prices were completely disjointed from the reality of underlying costs (zero for the telcos). My college CS professor gave senate testimony on this: https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/keshav_testimony_06_16_09.pdf https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/keshav_testim... (side rant: in the following ten years, the tech giants sweeped in, competed, provided a better service, with better cross-platform support, for zero dollar immediate cost to the end customer -- gained a massive following (think whatsapp), and are now vilified for their "monopoly" and the "harm" it has caused.)
- northwest65 6y ago
  >You also got charged for spam SMS Wait what? They charge you for receiving text messages or am I not reading that right? Do they also charge you to receive phone calls haha?
  - hattar 6y ago
    Yes. In the US, cellular calls are charged by air time so you pay for incoming calls as well. I think all plans are unlimited these days though.
    - mgkimsal 6y ago
      there are still 'per minute' plans. I still have one for a family member's "emergency" phone.
    - toast0 6y ago
      My plan has unlimited text, but only 100 minutes of talk (which is almost always plenty). My Mom is still on a strict per minute plan, with a stored value plan though. I think she gets free incoming text, but has to pay for calls or texts she sends.
      - ineedasername 6y ago
alanbernstein 6y ago
That's odd, I feel like I'm always fighting my phone to make it stop using data. It's really my top complaint about smartphone apps.
- m463 6y ago
  That's how the apps make their money.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    Which is a problem, because honest people make money in exchange for providing a valuable service - not by stealing your resources from you to steal your data from you, and make money off giving that to malicious third parties.
ksec 6y ago
I have been thinking for many years, why doesn't Apple works with Carrier on this. OS Update ( and may be App Update ) Download should happen during Midnight when everyone is asleep ( when the network is quiet ) and those Data should be exempt from their Data Allowance. There are increasing amount of people with no WiFI or Wired Internet connection at home. ( Mostly because how convenient Mobile Phone and Network has become ), but they still need OS update. Software and Apps still take the view many features requires a WiFi. 5G will massively improve Network Capacity, but at the current rate of things it still take at least 4 years for most of the iPhone users to be 5G Ready. Which means we wont see any of these WiFi by default changes in the foreseeable future.
- dividuum 6y ago
  The reason is hopefully https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_neutrality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_neutrality. Otherwise you soon get a network with all the big player’s services being „free“. This makes competition with them even more difficult.
szszrk 6y ago
The over way around is also annoying: what if you have a limited connection but you are on WiFi? Say, you share from another phone using hotspot feature. Some tools allow to control this, but others will update the shit out of your mobile plan as soon as it can see wifi. On the other hand I mostly like how roaming was solved in Android phones I had. It allowed me to choose which apps can use it and constantly monitored current usage of each.
Hamuko 6y ago
I remember being really annoyed that there was like a 20 or 50 MB limit for app downloads on the iPhone 3GS when I got it. I had unlimited 3G data, I didn't care how big the application was, just let me download it.
tupputuppu 6y ago
Yes! I hate the fact that iPhones don't update or backup over mobile. My unlimited mobile data is 300mbps compared to my fixed 100mbps. Why, oh why has Apple not allowed me the option of using my mobile data how I want to? I've got my mom and grandpa on same mobile plans without any fixed connectivity and the only time their iPhones backup is when I visit and hotspot them. It's crazy!
- llampx 6y ago
  That's because Apple cooperated with the cell carriers to help them reduce the data usage from iPhones so that the carriers would push iPhones to consumers.
  - bredren 6y ago
    Fwiw, this was a relatively minor point of cooperation compared to the concessions Apple has extracted from carriers.
TeMPOraL 6y ago
> I hope the us catches up at some point because software still doesn't even consider it an option - I have to actively fight all my settings so I can get updates, backups, streaming at high quality and the like because the OS considers they should always be done on wifi. Interesting, because until recently I had the reverse problem. I had to fight everything on my phone (and occasionally, my system) to stop doing updates and backups over mobile connections, because those were always limited in Poland. I'm not sure if anyone truly does offer an unlimited plan here (other than bullshit "unlimited, but we'll throttle you down for the rest of the month after a gigabyte or three"). Bottomline: it's not just US. I think most of the world doesn't have ubiquitous unlimited mobile data.
- pferdone 6y ago
  But it‘s not just about unlimited data. I wasnt able to download a podcast bigger than 200MB during vacation, because it requires you to have a wifi connection. It just doesnt let you.
  - Godel_unicode 6y ago
    Don't buy an iPhone if you want to be able to make these kinds of decisions for yourself...?

by kace91 6y ago

Waterluvian 6y ago

I’m not throwing shade but I’m genuinely curious what the infrastructure cost per user is when comparing Europe and US and Canada. Surely it might be part of the problem.

MrMorden 6y ago
The US does have higher labor costs than most of Europe, but lax regulation of special access service (backhaul) is probably more of a factor.
- kristopolous 6y ago
  huh? What's your source?
rsynnott 6y ago
Probably more down to limited competition in the US, honestly. Comparing costs across Western Europe, it’s hard to make the case that it’s an infrastructure cost problem; Germany (dense) is more expensive than Ireland (non-dense) which is more expensive than the UK (dense) which is more expensive than Finland (very non-dense).
- Waterluvian 6y ago
  Thanks. Yeah that does sound plausible. Canada suffers from anticompetition too.
- ksec 6y ago
  Well there are multiple factor involve, so population density isn't always of the main concern. The main cost of infrastructure is actually the rent, of any land / property cost required for the Cell. In Countries where Mobile Network already owns the land for these Cell Site / Tower that were paid and amortised during the 2G / 3G / 4G era. They are now essentially free. In Cities, that depends on rent and property pricing, unless you have government mandate or directly involved like in China. It is also dependent on the fear level of radiation in the culture / nation. People will protest to get rid of Cell Site in their own area ( While at the same time demand their Mobile Phone to have perfect reception ). Which also drives up the cost of finding and setting up Cell Sites. ( Or they are willing to put up with the risk of radiation if you pay them more ).
- Arnt 6y ago
  Do you consider the cost of frequency bands a part of infrastructure costs, or is that separate? https://www.dw.com/en/fnord/a-49168657 https://www.dw.com/en/fnord/a-49168657 was the top hit just now when I searched for 5G auctions. I've no idea how much telcos pay in other countries, but the top six hits for my search were all about Germany, which at least doesn't suggest that Finland is raking in record sums from its auctions.
  - rsynnott 6y ago
    It's probably not a big factor. If we look at last time round, Ireland, a country of 5 million people, got 450 million in the LTE spectrum auction. Germany, a country of 83 million people, got 5.1 billion. So per capita the Irish spectrum was almost twice as expensive as the German spectrum, and yet mobile data is generally cheaper in Ireland (despite lower density, generally higher labour costs, and other factors that would lead you to expect it would be more expensive in Ireland if cost of data was actually determined by input costs). When it comes to it, 6.5bn _sounds_ like a lot, but it's only 78 euro per capita, and that's buying the telcos permanent assets which will be useful for decades to come.
ineedasername 6y ago
Maybe it used to be? I don't know, but not anymore. Mint Mobile will get you unlimited talk/text and 3GB data for $15/month, no extra fees. They're an MVNO using T-Mobile's network. If T-Mobile can make money wholesaling their network to Mint, and Mint can make money selling plans at that price, there's no reason for a "normal" plan to run $70 before taxes and fees. Even Mint's unlimited plan is only $30, less than half of what TMobile has.
- closeparen 6y ago
  Typically the catch with MVNOs (and prepaid products under the main brand) is that they don't roam; you get only one operator's towers. In urban areas this is not a big deal but if you like road trips it can matter.

imedadel 6y ago

How much does it cost you and what's the average speed?

kace91 6y ago
I just made one of those online speed tests and it came up at ~45mb/s. Not sure if that's representative, but the important answer is that it's good enough that I never feel it's a bottleneck. As for price, I've got 3 mobile lines with infinite data plus my home wifi at 600mbps and the whole thing costs 100€/month.

marcan_42 6y ago

Phones are smart enough to know that shared networks are mobile behind the scenes and treat them as metered data too. You have to go into the wifi settings to disable that feature and force it as unmetered (how that works and whether you can even do it depends on the phone vendor...)

kovek 6y ago
It is possible to detect but it’s not necessarily detected by most OS features or most apps.
jjnoakes 6y ago
I'm curious, how does a phone know the WiFi is metered?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- bowmessage 6y ago
  I believe this is what the comment is referencing: https://android.stackexchange.com/a/220981 https://android.stackexchange.com/a/220981
  - Namidairo 6y ago
    There's also the Microsoft probe/beacon extension that exists. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/mobilebroadband/network-cost-information-element https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/mo... I don't know what iOS is doing, as they still didn't have proper data metering and limiting the last time I checked.

CrackpotGonzo 6y ago

Which service do you use?

TuringNYC 6y ago

Just a decade ago, SMS messages in the US cost 10 to 25 cents per SMS. You also got charged for spam SMS. Prices were completely disjointed from the reality of underlying costs (zero for the telcos). My college CS professor gave senate testimony on this: https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/keshav_testimony_06_16_09.pdf https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/keshav_testim... (side rant: in the following ten years, the tech giants sweeped in, competed, provided a better service, with better cross-platform support, for zero dollar immediate cost to the end customer -- gained a massive following (think whatsapp), and are now vilified for their "monopoly" and the "harm" it has caused.)

northwest65 6y ago
>You also got charged for spam SMS Wait what? They charge you for receiving text messages or am I not reading that right? Do they also charge you to receive phone calls haha?
- hattar 6y ago
  Yes. In the US, cellular calls are charged by air time so you pay for incoming calls as well. I think all plans are unlimited these days though.
  - mgkimsal 6y ago
    there are still 'per minute' plans. I still have one for a family member's "emergency" phone.
  - toast0 6y ago
    My plan has unlimited text, but only 100 minutes of talk (which is almost always plenty). My Mom is still on a strict per minute plan, with a stored value plan though. I think she gets free incoming text, but has to pay for calls or texts she sends.
    - ineedasername 6y ago

alanbernstein 6y ago

That's odd, I feel like I'm always fighting my phone to make it stop using data. It's really my top complaint about smartphone apps.

m463 6y ago
That's how the apps make their money.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  Which is a problem, because honest people make money in exchange for providing a valuable service - not by stealing your resources from you to steal your data from you, and make money off giving that to malicious third parties.

ksec 6y ago

I have been thinking for many years, why doesn't Apple works with Carrier on this. OS Update ( and may be App Update ) Download should happen during Midnight when everyone is asleep ( when the network is quiet ) and those Data should be exempt from their Data Allowance. There are increasing amount of people with no WiFI or Wired Internet connection at home. ( Mostly because how convenient Mobile Phone and Network has become ), but they still need OS update. Software and Apps still take the view many features requires a WiFi. 5G will massively improve Network Capacity, but at the current rate of things it still take at least 4 years for most of the iPhone users to be 5G Ready. Which means we wont see any of these WiFi by default changes in the foreseeable future.

dividuum 6y ago
The reason is hopefully https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_neutrality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_neutrality. Otherwise you soon get a network with all the big player’s services being „free“. This makes competition with them even more difficult.

szszrk 6y ago

The over way around is also annoying: what if you have a limited connection but you are on WiFi? Say, you share from another phone using hotspot feature. Some tools allow to control this, but others will update the shit out of your mobile plan as soon as it can see wifi. On the other hand I mostly like how roaming was solved in Android phones I had. It allowed me to choose which apps can use it and constantly monitored current usage of each.

Hamuko 6y ago

I remember being really annoyed that there was like a 20 or 50 MB limit for app downloads on the iPhone 3GS when I got it. I had unlimited 3G data, I didn't care how big the application was, just let me download it.

tupputuppu 6y ago

Yes! I hate the fact that iPhones don't update or backup over mobile. My unlimited mobile data is 300mbps compared to my fixed 100mbps. Why, oh why has Apple not allowed me the option of using my mobile data how I want to? I've got my mom and grandpa on same mobile plans without any fixed connectivity and the only time their iPhones backup is when I visit and hotspot them. It's crazy!

llampx 6y ago
That's because Apple cooperated with the cell carriers to help them reduce the data usage from iPhones so that the carriers would push iPhones to consumers.
- bredren 6y ago
  Fwiw, this was a relatively minor point of cooperation compared to the concessions Apple has extracted from carriers.

TeMPOraL 6y ago

> I hope the us catches up at some point because software still doesn't even consider it an option - I have to actively fight all my settings so I can get updates, backups, streaming at high quality and the like because the OS considers they should always be done on wifi. Interesting, because until recently I had the reverse problem. I had to fight everything on my phone (and occasionally, my system) to stop doing updates and backups over mobile connections, because those were always limited in Poland. I'm not sure if anyone truly does offer an unlimited plan here (other than bullshit "unlimited, but we'll throttle you down for the rest of the month after a gigabyte or three"). Bottomline: it's not just US. I think most of the world doesn't have ubiquitous unlimited mobile data.

pferdone 6y ago
But it‘s not just about unlimited data. I wasnt able to download a podcast bigger than 200MB during vacation, because it requires you to have a wifi connection. It just doesnt let you.
- Godel_unicode 6y ago
  Don't buy an iPhone if you want to be able to make these kinds of decisions for yourself...?