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> Yeah I didn't explain that very well. Not at all well, I'm afraid, but I think I understand: f(){ false && true; } ; set -e ; f ; echo hi # this works c

by a1369209993 6y ago

> Yeah I didn't explain that very well. Not at all well, I'm afraid, but I think I understand: f(){ false && true; } ; set -e ; f ; echo hi # this works correctly (f returns false and errexit triggers) set -e; false && true ; echo hi # despite `false && true` failing, this doesn't trigger errexit I was confused by the implication that the function version was what was wrong (rather than "false && true is broken, and you'd expect the function to work the same way"). Probably partly because I was confusing it with `command || true`, which is a idiomatic way to suppress errexit-like mechanisms by making the exit status always 0.

chubot 6y ago
Well, which one is broken depends on your viewpoint, and the exact use case. Another way to look at it is the difference between exercise 4 and 5 here: https://mywiki.wooledge.org/BashFAQ/105 https://mywiki.wooledge.org/BashFAQ/105 So taking that concrete example test -d nosuchdir && echo "warning: no directory"; instead of false && true You didn't want the function to fail. You just wanted to print a warning if the directory doesn't exist. But the whole function fails, while it doesn't for the if statement. The whole thing is inherently confusing ... The language confuses success/failure and true/false. Both of those are stuffed into an exit code. test -d is really for true/false, but then functions also have success/failure (did the last command succeed). So there's no way for shell to really know what you want. I think Oil might end up with something like "if catch foo" for success/fail, and "if boolean grep" for true/false.
- a1369209993 6y ago
  > You just wanted to print a warning if the directory doesn't exist. That code prints a warning if the directory does exist, actually ("-d FILE FILE exists and is a directory"). Did you mean something like: test -e outfile && echo "trying to overwrite preexisting outfile" > You didn't want the function to fail. Uh, I kind of do, actually? If I wanted to discard the exit status I'd write: test -e outfile && echo "trying to overwrite preexisting outfile" || true; This is awkward, and suggests a proper if-then operator (perl-6-style `??` collides with globbing, but maybe `&?`?), but it's better then having something like: mkfoo -o foo && cp -T foo otherfoo do-something foo bar mostly-silently mix old and new data together because mkfoo failed and the error code was swallowed. > So there's no way for shell to really know what you want. Yep, and if we have to pick one problem, things failing completely in a obvious and also easily-fixable way is usually a much less awful problem to have than silently corrupting data and state, especially when you've opted-in to a mechanism (like errexit) specifically designed to do the former.

chubot 6y ago

Well, which one is broken depends on your viewpoint, and the exact use case. Another way to look at it is the difference between exercise 4 and 5 here: https://mywiki.wooledge.org/BashFAQ/105 https://mywiki.wooledge.org/BashFAQ/105 So taking that concrete example test -d nosuchdir && echo "warning: no directory"; instead of false && true You didn't want the function to fail. You just wanted to print a warning if the directory doesn't exist. But the whole function fails, while it doesn't for the if statement. The whole thing is inherently confusing ... The language confuses success/failure and true/false. Both of those are stuffed into an exit code. test -d is really for true/false, but then functions also have success/failure (did the last command succeed). So there's no way for shell to really know what you want. I think Oil might end up with something like "if catch foo" for success/fail, and "if boolean grep" for true/false.

a1369209993 6y ago
> You just wanted to print a warning if the directory doesn't exist. That code prints a warning if the directory does exist, actually ("-d FILE FILE exists and is a directory"). Did you mean something like: test -e outfile && echo "trying to overwrite preexisting outfile" > You didn't want the function to fail. Uh, I kind of do, actually? If I wanted to discard the exit status I'd write: test -e outfile && echo "trying to overwrite preexisting outfile" || true; This is awkward, and suggests a proper if-then operator (perl-6-style `??` collides with globbing, but maybe `&?`?), but it's better then having something like: mkfoo -o foo && cp -T foo otherfoo do-something foo bar mostly-silently mix old and new data together because mkfoo failed and the error code was swallowed. > So there's no way for shell to really know what you want. Yep, and if we have to pick one problem, things failing completely in a obvious and also easily-fixable way is usually a much less awful problem to have than silently corrupting data and state, especially when you've opted-in to a mechanism (like errexit) specifically designed to do the former.