4 ms·

CDNs are misunderstood these days. Caching at the browser across sites is not that important, it caching at a point of presence (POP). This POP being so much cl

by jabart 6y ago

CDNs are misunderstood these days. Caching at the browser across sites is not that important, it caching at a point of presence (POP). This POP being so much closer to your end users brings performance gains because TCP is terrible over distances. QUIC may fix this by it's shift to UDP. I haven't seen a benchmark yet. Security is a concern, use SRI. Reliability can be mitigated with fail over logic to a backup. The part missed is bandwidth. Using a CDN means your web server doesn't have to serve out static files that you are paying per a GB to serve. Small sites it's not much but it does add up. It's a Content Delivery Network not a Cache Delivery Network.

EE84M3i 6y ago
Wait, what is the misunderstanding? Aren't these the well known benefits of CDNs?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dathinab 6y ago
  CDNs are just a service to handle delivery of static content for you. Their main points (unordered) are: - reliability - delivery speed through closeness to user (having nodes all around the world) - cost - ease of use - handling of high loads for you / making static content less affectedly by accidental or intentional DoS situations That multiple domains might use the same url and might share the cache was always just a lucky bonus. Given that the other side needs to use the exact same version of the exact same library with the exact same build options accessed through the exact same url to profit from cach sharing it never was reliable at all. I mean how fast does the JS landscape change? Given how cross domain caching can be used to track users across domains safari and Firefox disabled it a while ago as far as I know, and chrome will do so soone.
  - m463 6y ago
    go to a webpage that uses a cdn and do view source. it all looks like https://cdn.example.com/foo/bar.js?v=129a1d14ad3 https://cdn.example.com/foo/bar.js?v=129a1d14ad3
baskire 6y ago
My understanding is that it’s not TCP but the tcp AND tls handshake overhead combined. Where-as quick combined both handshakes at the protocol level.
- jabart 6y ago
  TCP has the concept of a TCP Window, where its a buffer of the data that the opposite side waits for an ACK packet from before sending more data. Windows defaults to 64kb to start. On your local LAN (which TCP was built for), no big deal, but going across a distance. Then add in one lost packet or one out of order packet and TCP has to ask for it again and delay the whole thing. Its why HTTP/2 has higher latency on spotty 4g networks. The TLS handshake suffers from the same distance issue ACK packets have which with TLS 1.3 there is 0-rtt which removes the handshake as part of the first TCP packet. QUIC puts everything in UDP, so theoretically its a never ending firehose of data for a download with the occasional "hey, I missing packet 3, 12, 18, please resend". Mimicking TCP but putting the app in control versus the kernel.
  - baskire 6y ago
    Quic also has a window size. > QUIC congestion control has been written based on many years of TCP experience, so it is little surprise that the two have mechanisms that bear resemblance. It’s based on the CWND (congestion window, the limit of how many bytes you can send to the network) and the SSTHRESH (slow start threshold, sets a limit when slow start will stop). https://blog.cloudflare.com/cubic-and-hystart-support-in-quiche/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/cubic-and-hystart-support-in-qui...
    - Matthias247 6y ago
      Quic kind of has 3 windows: Per stream and per connection flow control windows, which kind of indicate how much data the peer may send on a given connection before it gets a window update. Those windows also indicate how much the server is willing to store in its receive buffers, since the updates are likely sent when those buffers are drained. A congestion window, which indicates how many low-level packets and data in them can be in-flight without being acknowledged. Those also account for retransmissions, and packets which do not necessarily contain stream data.
tasogare 6y ago
One won’t have loading time problem if one doesn’t ship websites with kilotons of JS crap. Also paying per downloaded content is dumb as it’s easy for an attacker to attack you financially and lot of hosting companies (like OVH) offers "unlimited" bandwidth.
zamadatix 6y ago
The post is "Please stop using CDNs for external JavaScript Libraries" not "Please stop using CDNs". If a CDN is critical to your site's performance you should put your site on it not internal libraries here and external libraries there. The page mentions this as well: "Speed: You probably shouldn’t be using multi-megabyte libraries. Have some respect for your users’ download limits. But if you are truly worried about speed, surely your whole site should be behind a CDN – not just a few JS libraries?" Also even before QUIC HTTP/2 fixed a lot of the problems with distance as you no longer need to wait for separate handshakes for multiple files to be streamed. QUIC will still give a few advantages but again those advantages would be good to have on your whole site not just a few libraries.
- MrStonedOne 6y ago
  But wouldn't a site be faster if cachable requests go to a cdn, and no un-cachable requests go directly to origin with no forwarding at the cdn layer?
  - zamadatix 6y ago
    When I say "If a CDN is critical to your site's performance you should put your site on it" I do mean to say "put (those parts of) your site on it" not "if 51% of your site should be on a CDN put the other 49% as well". But to your question though even un-cacheable content can be "those parts of". There are products from CDNs like https://blog.cloudflare.com/argo/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/argo/ which combine CDN cache tiering with higher tier network transport to origin servers for all cache misses (or uncacheable content). Again though, it depends on if it's critical to your site's performance or not. If you don't have a bunch of uncacheable content, that content doesn't need the absolute best transport, or the time/money could improve some other part of the site speed more then it's not critical to your site's performance.
  - ehnto 6y ago
    Only if the CDN serves assets faster than the origin can. That's not necessarily true by default. Not to mention, if the speed is okay for the initial request, why not the following requests? The final nail in the coffin for me is that CDNs are a shared resource, if your CDN is getting heavy traffic or otherwise suffering, it becomes your slow point, while your site is fine. I just don't see any upsides worth the tradeoffs. If you have scale that demands some serious content distribution, that is different, I would argue you shouldn't be relying on public shared CDNs then even moreso. Pay for a CDN service or roll your own.
adrianmonk 6y ago
How would failover actually be implemented? If you have a script tag with integrity enabled, and the cryptographic hash doesn't match, what happens next? From some quick research, it doesn't seem like the script tag has built-in support for this. One could imagine something like multiple src attributes (used as a search order for the first valid file), but that doesn't seem to exist. So it seems like the web page has to do it manually. Which I guess means you have to have some javascript (probably inline, so you know it's loaded and for performance?) to check and fix the loading of your other javascript. If it's really that manual, it sounds like it adds cost to implementing this correctly. in other words, it might be one of those scenarios where correctness is achievable, but it's a whole lot simpler to just not do it that way.
- jabart 6y ago
  Since Script tags are blocking, you can do a undefined check then if that fails, inject a new script tag either local or a secondary CDN. Link for reference. .Net Core has this built in as a tag helper too! https://www.hanselman.com/blog/cdns-fail-but-your-scripts-dont-have-to-fallback-from-cdn-to-local-jquery https://www.hanselman.com/blog/cdns-fail-but-your-scripts-do...
  - adrianmonk 6y ago
    Thanks. So it seems like it's not really that bad. Particularly if you are already using some loader tools (and don't have to add them to your build just to get this).
Matthias247 6y ago
> This POP being so much closer to your end users brings performance gains because TCP is terrible over distances. QUIC may fix this by it's shift to UDP. I haven't seen a benchmark yet. Quic can't defeat physics. Performance will still lineary degrade with distance to (edge) servers, and therefore CDNs will stay important. What Quic however will do is reduce the time-to-first-byte on an intial connection by 1RTT due to one less handshake - which can be e.g. a 30ms win. After the connection is established it aims to yield more consistent performance than e.g. HTTP/2 over TCP. But packets will still require the same time to go from the browser to an edge location, and therefore the minimum latency for a certain distance is the same.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
mikl 6y ago
Sure, but if you have any custom JavaScript that needs to load before the page can render, using a CDN for just the JS libraries does not really help. If you want the benefit of a CDN, you need to put your own code up there. And if you’re doing that, you might as well host your own copy of the libraries too, so the browser won’t have to talk to two different CDNs.
_-___________-_ 6y ago
We bundle everything, including dependencies, up into minified modules and serve our whole frontend via Google Cloud's CDN, using Cache-Control to control the way things are cached. This way there are no third-party requests at all to load the site, and everything is cached close to the user.

by jabart 6y ago

EE84M3i 6y ago

Wait, what is the misunderstanding? Aren't these the well known benefits of CDNs?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dathinab 6y ago
CDNs are just a service to handle delivery of static content for you. Their main points (unordered) are: - reliability - delivery speed through closeness to user (having nodes all around the world) - cost - ease of use - handling of high loads for you / making static content less affectedly by accidental or intentional DoS situations That multiple domains might use the same url and might share the cache was always just a lucky bonus. Given that the other side needs to use the exact same version of the exact same library with the exact same build options accessed through the exact same url to profit from cach sharing it never was reliable at all. I mean how fast does the JS landscape change? Given how cross domain caching can be used to track users across domains safari and Firefox disabled it a while ago as far as I know, and chrome will do so soone.
- m463 6y ago
  go to a webpage that uses a cdn and do view source. it all looks like https://cdn.example.com/foo/bar.js?v=129a1d14ad3 https://cdn.example.com/foo/bar.js?v=129a1d14ad3

baskire 6y ago

My understanding is that it’s not TCP but the tcp AND tls handshake overhead combined. Where-as quick combined both handshakes at the protocol level.

jabart 6y ago
TCP has the concept of a TCP Window, where its a buffer of the data that the opposite side waits for an ACK packet from before sending more data. Windows defaults to 64kb to start. On your local LAN (which TCP was built for), no big deal, but going across a distance. Then add in one lost packet or one out of order packet and TCP has to ask for it again and delay the whole thing. Its why HTTP/2 has higher latency on spotty 4g networks. The TLS handshake suffers from the same distance issue ACK packets have which with TLS 1.3 there is 0-rtt which removes the handshake as part of the first TCP packet. QUIC puts everything in UDP, so theoretically its a never ending firehose of data for a download with the occasional "hey, I missing packet 3, 12, 18, please resend". Mimicking TCP but putting the app in control versus the kernel.
- baskire 6y ago
  Quic also has a window size. > QUIC congestion control has been written based on many years of TCP experience, so it is little surprise that the two have mechanisms that bear resemblance. It’s based on the CWND (congestion window, the limit of how many bytes you can send to the network) and the SSTHRESH (slow start threshold, sets a limit when slow start will stop). https://blog.cloudflare.com/cubic-and-hystart-support-in-quiche/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/cubic-and-hystart-support-in-qui...
  - Matthias247 6y ago
    Quic kind of has 3 windows: Per stream and per connection flow control windows, which kind of indicate how much data the peer may send on a given connection before it gets a window update. Those windows also indicate how much the server is willing to store in its receive buffers, since the updates are likely sent when those buffers are drained. A congestion window, which indicates how many low-level packets and data in them can be in-flight without being acknowledged. Those also account for retransmissions, and packets which do not necessarily contain stream data.

tasogare 6y ago

One won’t have loading time problem if one doesn’t ship websites with kilotons of JS crap. Also paying per downloaded content is dumb as it’s easy for an attacker to attack you financially and lot of hosting companies (like OVH) offers "unlimited" bandwidth.

zamadatix 6y ago

The post is "Please stop using CDNs for external JavaScript Libraries" not "Please stop using CDNs". If a CDN is critical to your site's performance you should put your site on it not internal libraries here and external libraries there. The page mentions this as well: "Speed: You probably shouldn’t be using multi-megabyte libraries. Have some respect for your users’ download limits. But if you are truly worried about speed, surely your whole site should be behind a CDN – not just a few JS libraries?" Also even before QUIC HTTP/2 fixed a lot of the problems with distance as you no longer need to wait for separate handshakes for multiple files to be streamed. QUIC will still give a few advantages but again those advantages would be good to have on your whole site not just a few libraries.

MrStonedOne 6y ago
But wouldn't a site be faster if cachable requests go to a cdn, and no un-cachable requests go directly to origin with no forwarding at the cdn layer?
- zamadatix 6y ago
  When I say "If a CDN is critical to your site's performance you should put your site on it" I do mean to say "put (those parts of) your site on it" not "if 51% of your site should be on a CDN put the other 49% as well". But to your question though even un-cacheable content can be "those parts of". There are products from CDNs like https://blog.cloudflare.com/argo/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/argo/ which combine CDN cache tiering with higher tier network transport to origin servers for all cache misses (or uncacheable content). Again though, it depends on if it's critical to your site's performance or not. If you don't have a bunch of uncacheable content, that content doesn't need the absolute best transport, or the time/money could improve some other part of the site speed more then it's not critical to your site's performance.
- ehnto 6y ago
  Only if the CDN serves assets faster than the origin can. That's not necessarily true by default. Not to mention, if the speed is okay for the initial request, why not the following requests? The final nail in the coffin for me is that CDNs are a shared resource, if your CDN is getting heavy traffic or otherwise suffering, it becomes your slow point, while your site is fine. I just don't see any upsides worth the tradeoffs. If you have scale that demands some serious content distribution, that is different, I would argue you shouldn't be relying on public shared CDNs then even moreso. Pay for a CDN service or roll your own.

adrianmonk 6y ago

How would failover actually be implemented? If you have a script tag with integrity enabled, and the cryptographic hash doesn't match, what happens next? From some quick research, it doesn't seem like the script tag has built-in support for this. One could imagine something like multiple src attributes (used as a search order for the first valid file), but that doesn't seem to exist. So it seems like the web page has to do it manually. Which I guess means you have to have some javascript (probably inline, so you know it's loaded and for performance?) to check and fix the loading of your other javascript. If it's really that manual, it sounds like it adds cost to implementing this correctly. in other words, it might be one of those scenarios where correctness is achievable, but it's a whole lot simpler to just not do it that way.

jabart 6y ago
Since Script tags are blocking, you can do a undefined check then if that fails, inject a new script tag either local or a secondary CDN. Link for reference. .Net Core has this built in as a tag helper too! https://www.hanselman.com/blog/cdns-fail-but-your-scripts-dont-have-to-fallback-from-cdn-to-local-jquery https://www.hanselman.com/blog/cdns-fail-but-your-scripts-do...
- adrianmonk 6y ago
  Thanks. So it seems like it's not really that bad. Particularly if you are already using some loader tools (and don't have to add them to your build just to get this).

Matthias247 6y ago

> This POP being so much closer to your end users brings performance gains because TCP is terrible over distances. QUIC may fix this by it's shift to UDP. I haven't seen a benchmark yet. Quic can't defeat physics. Performance will still lineary degrade with distance to (edge) servers, and therefore CDNs will stay important. What Quic however will do is reduce the time-to-first-byte on an intial connection by 1RTT due to one less handshake - which can be e.g. a 30ms win. After the connection is established it aims to yield more consistent performance than e.g. HTTP/2 over TCP. But packets will still require the same time to go from the browser to an edge location, and therefore the minimum latency for a certain distance is the same.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

mikl 6y ago

Sure, but if you have any custom JavaScript that needs to load before the page can render, using a CDN for just the JS libraries does not really help. If you want the benefit of a CDN, you need to put your own code up there. And if you’re doing that, you might as well host your own copy of the libraries too, so the browser won’t have to talk to two different CDNs.

_-___________-_ 6y ago

We bundle everything, including dependencies, up into minified modules and serve our whole frontend via Google Cloud's CDN, using Cache-Control to control the way things are cached. This way there are no third-party requests at all to load the site, and everything is cached close to the user.