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KaTeX is great, but I long for a system that: 1. Can be rendered server-side without a heavy runtime (ideally written in C/C++/Rust/Whatever instead of JS). 2

KaTeX is great, but I long for a system that: 1. Can be rendered server-side without a heavy runtime (ideally written in C/C++/Rust/Whatever instead of JS). 2. Has a well defined output AST, so that the output can be manipulated (e.g. realtime visual equation editing). 3. Is accessible to the visually impared. Actually, we have such a system: MathML. And its a W3C standard to boot. The only reason why we have to rely on slow JS hacks like KaTeX and MathJax is because of Chrome. Google hates disabled people.

gostsamo 6y ago
The bad accessibility of math notation and math content is one of the main reasons there are very few visually impaired people in STEM, one of the main reasons why I'm doing code and not physics, and why Firefox is given as the accessibility default in web.
- xiphias2 6y ago
  Actually often I wish that AI papers contained code instead of math so that it's clearer how it can be implemented, and how the variables are used. It would make the papers a bit longer, but implementations easier to understand.
  - gspr 6y ago
    > Actually often I wish that AI papers contained code instead of math so that it's clearer how it can be implemented That's insanity. Sure, code is a nice addition, but it does not convey the same information as the math does. It's akin to asking to replace an engineer's design of a bridge with a scale model.
    - c0nfused 6y ago
      I think this is more akin to construction workers asking for blueprints rather than cad models. As someone who hasn't actively done formal math in a couple of decades the slog of relearning syntax to read papers about code can be off putting. I understand that this makes me a barbarian. However code is really the lingua franca we use as an industry but in papers it is treated exactly as you say a nice addition.
      - arthur2e5 6y ago
        Not quite the same field, but see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24649992 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24649992 for an article about PLT (programming language theory) notation.
      - gspr 6y ago
        > I think this is more akin to construction workers asking for blueprints rather than cad models. No, because those aim to express the same thing, albeit with different limitations and practical considerations. Code and math are entirely separate things. > As someone who hasn't actively done formal math in a couple of decades the slog of relearning syntax to read papers about code can be off putting. Surely the syntax is an incredibly minor part of it all? > However code is really the lingua franca we use as an industry but in papers it is treated exactly as you say a nice addition. Code is an implementation detail. Papers express ideas, not implementations.
foepys 6y ago
I don't know if I'm reading [1] correctly but it appears that Google is finally working on implementing MathML in Chromium. There have been multiple commits and updates to this bug in 2020, especially in September. Edit: It's not being implemented by Google. It's a sponsored effort because Google couldn't be bothered. [2] 1: https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=6606 https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=6606 2: https://mathml.igalia.com https://mathml.igalia.com
- bjoli 6y ago
  Igalia seems like such a great company. They are doing lots of important and exciting things in open source. Sure, they get paid for it and all that, but it seems like such a cool idea. I am glad it seems to work for them
hyiltiz 6y ago
Would mathematical[0] satisfy at least the first two requirement? I just found about it from the MathJax post today. [0] https://github.com/gjtorikian/mathematical https://github.com/gjtorikian/mathematical
vbernat 6y ago
KaTeX can be generated server-side (no JS on client-side). Its output is browser-independent. It contains MathML in its output and the remaining of the output is correctly tagged to be ignored by readers: <math xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML"><semantics><mrow><msup><mi>g</mi><mi>a</mi></msup><mspace></mspace><mspace width="0.6666666666666666em"></mspace><mrow><mi mathvariant="normal">m</mi><mi mathvariant="normal">o</mi><mi mathvariant="normal">d</mi></mrow><mtext> </mtext><mtext> </mtext><mi>p</mi><mo>=</mo><mi>A</mi></mrow><annotation encoding="application/x-tex">g^a\mod p=A</annotation></semantics></math>gamodp=A This is: g^k\equiv a\pmod{p}
- snicker7 6y ago
 JS on server-side can be taxing. If I don't use NodeJS, then I'd have to (1) call it from a script, eating the startup time (2) run a daemon of NodeJS workers running in parallel to my web server or (3) use an "embedded" JS engine, hoping I don't run into compatibility issues. All three options have performance costs + adds more dependencies. If KaTeX were written in C, for example, it would be no problem FFI'ing it into just about any language. Plus whatever perf benefits there are of not using JS.
Loic 6y ago
Working daily with a blind scientist, I am translating the equations from old papers without good OCR in Fortran to discuss them. I haven't found a better way, but we would definitely appreciate more accessible content.
- neolog 6y ago
  You're translating into fortran? Why?
  - Loic 6y ago
    Because Fortran is FORmula TRANslator and it is very easy to express complex equations with it. It the lingua franca of scientific computing.
    - neolog 6y ago
      TIL. I'm curious what Fortran buys you over, say, Julia.
      - Loic 6y ago
        We simply master Fortran because of all the number crunching we are doing, nothing more.
  - TheRealKing 6y ago
    because it is powerful, fast, simple, object oriented, while being natively parallel, on both shared and distributed architecture.
euske 6y ago
FYI, LaTeX notation is used by many blind people to express math ideas even if they don't actually use LaTeX for typesetting. (I personally know two programmers, one math teacher and one scientist who are using it with a braille display on daily basis.) So it's not totally anti-accessibility.
wsimson 6y ago
I think this might be what you're looking for: https://github.com/cqql/pelican-katex https://github.com/cqql/pelican-katex

gostsamo 6y ago

The bad accessibility of math notation and math content is one of the main reasons there are very few visually impaired people in STEM, one of the main reasons why I'm doing code and not physics, and why Firefox is given as the accessibility default in web.

xiphias2 6y ago
Actually often I wish that AI papers contained code instead of math so that it's clearer how it can be implemented, and how the variables are used. It would make the papers a bit longer, but implementations easier to understand.
- gspr 6y ago
  > Actually often I wish that AI papers contained code instead of math so that it's clearer how it can be implemented That's insanity. Sure, code is a nice addition, but it does not convey the same information as the math does. It's akin to asking to replace an engineer's design of a bridge with a scale model.
  - c0nfused 6y ago
    I think this is more akin to construction workers asking for blueprints rather than cad models. As someone who hasn't actively done formal math in a couple of decades the slog of relearning syntax to read papers about code can be off putting. I understand that this makes me a barbarian. However code is really the lingua franca we use as an industry but in papers it is treated exactly as you say a nice addition.
    - arthur2e5 6y ago
      Not quite the same field, but see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24649992 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24649992 for an article about PLT (programming language theory) notation.
    - gspr 6y ago
      > I think this is more akin to construction workers asking for blueprints rather than cad models. No, because those aim to express the same thing, albeit with different limitations and practical considerations. Code and math are entirely separate things. > As someone who hasn't actively done formal math in a couple of decades the slog of relearning syntax to read papers about code can be off putting. Surely the syntax is an incredibly minor part of it all? > However code is really the lingua franca we use as an industry but in papers it is treated exactly as you say a nice addition. Code is an implementation detail. Papers express ideas, not implementations.

foepys 6y ago

I don't know if I'm reading [1] correctly but it appears that Google is finally working on implementing MathML in Chromium. There have been multiple commits and updates to this bug in 2020, especially in September. Edit: It's not being implemented by Google. It's a sponsored effort because Google couldn't be bothered. [2] 1: https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=6606 https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=6606 2: https://mathml.igalia.com https://mathml.igalia.com

bjoli 6y ago
Igalia seems like such a great company. They are doing lots of important and exciting things in open source. Sure, they get paid for it and all that, but it seems like such a cool idea. I am glad it seems to work for them

hyiltiz 6y ago

Would mathematical[0] satisfy at least the first two requirement? I just found about it from the MathJax post today. [0] https://github.com/gjtorikian/mathematical https://github.com/gjtorikian/mathematical

vbernat 6y ago

KaTeX can be generated server-side (no JS on client-side). Its output is browser-independent. It contains MathML in its output and the remaining of the output is correctly tagged to be ignored by readers: <math xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML"><semantics><mrow><msup><mi>g</mi><mi>a</mi></msup><mspace></mspace><mspace width="0.6666666666666666em"></mspace><mrow><mi mathvariant="normal">m</mi><mi mathvariant="normal">o</mi><mi mathvariant="normal">d</mi></mrow><mtext> </mtext><mtext> </mtext><mi>p</mi><mo>=</mo><mi>A</mi></mrow><annotation encoding="application/x-tex">g^a\mod p=A</annotation></semantics></math>gamodp=A This is: g^k\equiv a\pmod{p}

snicker7 6y ago
JS on server-side can be taxing. If I don't use NodeJS, then I'd have to (1) call it from a script, eating the startup time (2) run a daemon of NodeJS workers running in parallel to my web server or (3) use an "embedded" JS engine, hoping I don't run into compatibility issues. All three options have performance costs + adds more dependencies. If KaTeX were written in C, for example, it would be no problem FFI'ing it into just about any language. Plus whatever perf benefits there are of not using JS.

Loic 6y ago

Working daily with a blind scientist, I am translating the equations from old papers without good OCR in Fortran to discuss them. I haven't found a better way, but we would definitely appreciate more accessible content.

neolog 6y ago
You're translating into fortran? Why?
- Loic 6y ago
  Because Fortran is FORmula TRANslator and it is very easy to express complex equations with it. It the lingua franca of scientific computing.
  - neolog 6y ago
    TIL. I'm curious what Fortran buys you over, say, Julia.
    - Loic 6y ago
      We simply master Fortran because of all the number crunching we are doing, nothing more.
- TheRealKing 6y ago
  because it is powerful, fast, simple, object oriented, while being natively parallel, on both shared and distributed architecture.

euske 6y ago

FYI, LaTeX notation is used by many blind people to express math ideas even if they don't actually use LaTeX for typesetting. (I personally know two programmers, one math teacher and one scientist who are using it with a braille display on daily basis.) So it's not totally anti-accessibility.

wsimson 6y ago

I think this might be what you're looking for: https://github.com/cqql/pelican-katex https://github.com/cqql/pelican-katex