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I use a slightly configured Kinesis Advantage 2 and colemak as my keyboard layout (I used to make the Kinesis do the colemak, but now its just qwerty and the OS

I use a slightly configured Kinesis Advantage 2 and colemak as my keyboard layout (I used to make the Kinesis do the colemak, but now its just qwerty and the OS handles colemak). I find typing on it extremely comfortable. I've also found these beneficial: https://www.mycarpaltunnel.com/ https://www.mycarpaltunnel.com/ I like Ergodox, especially because of their super flexible configuration, but I dislike the flatness of the keyboard compared to the Kinesis and last time I looked, they limited the length of macros "so you don't store passwords in them".. ehh, that's a stupid reason for adding limitations. As an adult, I can make my own decisions on what I store in my macros, thanks (I use a password manager, so its not passwords)

bootlooped 6y ago
Seems like the limit is 32 characters. That probably covers 99% of passwords ever made. Even if you use a password manager you can still benefit from storing your master password as a macro, that allows you to have a very long one (at least up to 32 characters) without suffering the negative effects of that (it being a pain in the ass to type all the time). It doesn't seem unsafe to me, although at first glance it's reasonable to be suspicious. Macro memory is lost if the keyboard is unplugged for a short amount of time, like if somebody swiped it off your desk. Nobody will know you store your password in your keyboard unless you tell them. It may be difficult to even figure out what key combinations trigger the macro; you can make it very complicated with multiple layers. As far as I know, there is no way to pull the layout back off the Ergodox and view it in the configuration tool, so you couldn't just easily look up what the macro combo is. You use 2 factor on everything important anyway right? If somebody had access to your keyboard to do this, it would be much easier to just plug a keylogger in between the keyboard and PC. EDIT: it seems likely I misinterpreted what they meant.
- StevenWaterman 6y ago
  I think the parent is talking about the limit in Oryx, their online configuration tool. In Oryx, they limit macros to 4 characters. It's not because storing passwords on the keyboard is unsafe, it's because storing passwords in Oryx is unsafe. They're stored in plaintext and publicly visible. In response to the parent, you can configure longer macros using QMK directly.
  - dkersten 6y ago
    Ahh, so the restriction is in the UI not the firmware. Ok, that makes sense. It wasn't clear to me when I looked at and tried to set a macro. I still think they should just have a big red warning instead of limiting it, though.
ZeroGravitas 6y ago
The makers of the Ergodox EZ (it's open source so you can get Ergodoxes from various sources as well as build your own) also make the Moonlander, which is a step closer to the Kinesis in shape. I looked into it as a potentially more mobile alternative to the Kinesis but decided to stick with the Kinesis. I'm hoping if my current keyboard ever dies Kinesis will have a new QMK-based version that comes in two halves, or that the Dactyl Manuform becomes something that you can buy a solid transportable version of.
- dkersten 6y ago
  > the Moonlander, which is a step closer to the Kinesis in shape Just took a look, doesn't really look much difference. I mean the 3d curvature of the keys, your hand is kinda in a semi circular channel. I just find it comfortable, especially to reach the furthest rows of keys from the home row. Its not a huge deal, just something I like about the Kinesis. I also use the Kinesis foot pedals -- does something similar exist for the Ergodox? I didn't see one at my quick look, but I also didn't look very hard.
  - ZeroGravitas 6y ago
    The Moonlander lets you angle the thumb cluster seprately, where the ergodox ez is a single flat plane. For the bowl shape, you'd need to look at something like the Dactyl Manuform I mentioned. Many split keyboards transfer keypresses from one side to the other via simple audio cables, I believe footpedals could be spliced in there too, but that's just speculation.
    - nine_k 6y ago
      Most often the audio cable carries serial port signals (not proper RS232 afaict but logically a com port). Splicing in a pedal should be doable, as long as you don't press it simultaneously with a key on the "remote" part of the split keyboard.
      - kps 6y ago
polote 6y ago
There are keyboards for people who want a truly ergonomic input system and there are keyboards for fanboys Kinesis advantage 2 is for the first kind and ergodox is for the fanboys The most efficient tools are usually the most ugly and boring ones
- dkersten 6y ago
  I do like the configurability of the ergodox (and OSS firmware), but, I like the Kinesis hardware better.
- verisimilidude 6y ago
  That’s not an educated take. Just to take my own example, I’m unable to use the Kinesis Advantage because the bones in my right wrist are curved following an old injury. I’m physically incompatible with that keyboard. But split keyboards work great for me! I can rotate one side to accommodate my arm’s curve. Kinesis Freestyle is great for this. Ergodox also works. By your logic, I guess this makes me a fanboy? My point is that different people have different ergonomic needs, requiring different devices. It’s stupid as hell to turn this kind of thing into in-group status symbol pecking. The market for these devices exists because one size does not fit all.
  - polote 6y ago
    I'm going to be downvoted again, but what I'm trying to say is that Ergodox is to ergonomic keyboard what GraphQL is to REST. There are some specific use case in which Ergodox is better but most of the time the best choice is to go with Kinesis.
    - doesnt_know 6y ago
      > There are some specific use case in which Ergodox is better but most of the time the best choice is to go with Kinesis. Probably could have said just this and it would have communicated your point without coming across as a condescending asshole.
    - deleted 6y ago
hailwren 6y ago
You have to build it by hand, but check out the Dactyl or Dactyl Manuform. I think they're about the pinnacle of the erg keyboard world. 3d shape like a Kinesis but with more optimization for wrist angle and allows you to customize wrist rotation and split.
- dkersten 6y ago
  Looks like you can get them built here: https://ohkeycaps.com/products/built-to-order-dactyl-manuform-keyboard https://ohkeycaps.com/products/built-to-order-dactyl-manufor... They look pretty good!

bootlooped 6y ago

Seems like the limit is 32 characters. That probably covers 99% of passwords ever made. Even if you use a password manager you can still benefit from storing your master password as a macro, that allows you to have a very long one (at least up to 32 characters) without suffering the negative effects of that (it being a pain in the ass to type all the time). It doesn't seem unsafe to me, although at first glance it's reasonable to be suspicious. Macro memory is lost if the keyboard is unplugged for a short amount of time, like if somebody swiped it off your desk. Nobody will know you store your password in your keyboard unless you tell them. It may be difficult to even figure out what key combinations trigger the macro; you can make it very complicated with multiple layers. As far as I know, there is no way to pull the layout back off the Ergodox and view it in the configuration tool, so you couldn't just easily look up what the macro combo is. You use 2 factor on everything important anyway right? If somebody had access to your keyboard to do this, it would be much easier to just plug a keylogger in between the keyboard and PC. EDIT: it seems likely I misinterpreted what they meant.

StevenWaterman 6y ago
I think the parent is talking about the limit in Oryx, their online configuration tool. In Oryx, they limit macros to 4 characters. It's not because storing passwords on the keyboard is unsafe, it's because storing passwords in Oryx is unsafe. They're stored in plaintext and publicly visible. In response to the parent, you can configure longer macros using QMK directly.
- dkersten 6y ago
  Ahh, so the restriction is in the UI not the firmware. Ok, that makes sense. It wasn't clear to me when I looked at and tried to set a macro. I still think they should just have a big red warning instead of limiting it, though.

ZeroGravitas 6y ago

The makers of the Ergodox EZ (it's open source so you can get Ergodoxes from various sources as well as build your own) also make the Moonlander, which is a step closer to the Kinesis in shape. I looked into it as a potentially more mobile alternative to the Kinesis but decided to stick with the Kinesis. I'm hoping if my current keyboard ever dies Kinesis will have a new QMK-based version that comes in two halves, or that the Dactyl Manuform becomes something that you can buy a solid transportable version of.

dkersten 6y ago
> the Moonlander, which is a step closer to the Kinesis in shape Just took a look, doesn't really look much difference. I mean the 3d curvature of the keys, your hand is kinda in a semi circular channel. I just find it comfortable, especially to reach the furthest rows of keys from the home row. Its not a huge deal, just something I like about the Kinesis. I also use the Kinesis foot pedals -- does something similar exist for the Ergodox? I didn't see one at my quick look, but I also didn't look very hard.
- ZeroGravitas 6y ago
  The Moonlander lets you angle the thumb cluster seprately, where the ergodox ez is a single flat plane. For the bowl shape, you'd need to look at something like the Dactyl Manuform I mentioned. Many split keyboards transfer keypresses from one side to the other via simple audio cables, I believe footpedals could be spliced in there too, but that's just speculation.
  - nine_k 6y ago
    Most often the audio cable carries serial port signals (not proper RS232 afaict but logically a com port). Splicing in a pedal should be doable, as long as you don't press it simultaneously with a key on the "remote" part of the split keyboard.
    - kps 6y ago

polote 6y ago

There are keyboards for people who want a truly ergonomic input system and there are keyboards for fanboys Kinesis advantage 2 is for the first kind and ergodox is for the fanboys The most efficient tools are usually the most ugly and boring ones

dkersten 6y ago
I do like the configurability of the ergodox (and OSS firmware), but, I like the Kinesis hardware better.
verisimilidude 6y ago
That’s not an educated take. Just to take my own example, I’m unable to use the Kinesis Advantage because the bones in my right wrist are curved following an old injury. I’m physically incompatible with that keyboard. But split keyboards work great for me! I can rotate one side to accommodate my arm’s curve. Kinesis Freestyle is great for this. Ergodox also works. By your logic, I guess this makes me a fanboy? My point is that different people have different ergonomic needs, requiring different devices. It’s stupid as hell to turn this kind of thing into in-group status symbol pecking. The market for these devices exists because one size does not fit all.
- polote 6y ago
  I'm going to be downvoted again, but what I'm trying to say is that Ergodox is to ergonomic keyboard what GraphQL is to REST. There are some specific use case in which Ergodox is better but most of the time the best choice is to go with Kinesis.
  - doesnt_know 6y ago
    > There are some specific use case in which Ergodox is better but most of the time the best choice is to go with Kinesis. Probably could have said just this and it would have communicated your point without coming across as a condescending asshole.
  - deleted 6y ago

hailwren 6y ago

You have to build it by hand, but check out the Dactyl or Dactyl Manuform. I think they're about the pinnacle of the erg keyboard world. 3d shape like a Kinesis but with more optimization for wrist angle and allows you to customize wrist rotation and split.

dkersten 6y ago
Looks like you can get them built here: https://ohkeycaps.com/products/built-to-order-dactyl-manuform-keyboard https://ohkeycaps.com/products/built-to-order-dactyl-manufor... They look pretty good!